Hyundai Nexo

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coulomb
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Hyundai Nexo

Post by coulomb »

The first 20 Hyundai Nexos arrive in Australia, with 666 km of range. Don't get too excited though: they are FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles, fuel is compressed hydrogen), and they aren't available except to fleet buyers.

https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/hyundai-nexo-82996

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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by T1 Terry »

So do we all need to build solar powered electrolysers with solar powered compressors so we can take advantage of this wonderful new technology? It will have to mount on a trailer so it can be carted behind the Nexo for holiday trips ......When is the planned Hydrogen pump roll out beginning? Didn't our govt just invest big $$ in hydrogen generation plants?

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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by ResistanceIsFutile »

For the life of me.. I can't see why this is even a thing. Given the Hydrogen around the world is made from fossil fuel.. it's just no point. So you're paying extortionate sums for a car that's just as bad for the environment as an ICE car.

Maybe when we've got the grid covered with green electricity and we're having trouble knowing what to do with the excess this is something we could look at...
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by Chuq »

It's just a waste of money.. neither Hyundai (or Toyota for the Mirai) have announced a price for either of these, they both appear to be targetting fleets where they will lease you a number of them for a fixed term for a fixed cost. Probably because numbers provided overseas translate to something like a $120k+ starting cost (and on top of that, the manufacturers are *losing* money, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, each time they sell one).

But it's the infrastructure cost that is over the top. It's about $3m for a fully self contained solar+electrolysis+H2 fuel site. Compare that to $500k for a premium (multi stall, ultra rapid) charging site (or $100k for a 1-2 stall 50 kW site). But because you can't refuel at home, you also need 5-10x as many hydrogen fuelling locations. You need them in every part of every city, because if you had to do a 50 km return trip to the only hydrogen station in the city every time you needed to refuel, you'd get sick of that pretty quickly. So 6x the cost, 5-10x the volume and it's going to cost 30-60 times as much to cover the country with hydrogen as it would with ultra-rapid charging stations.

You'd need to spend close to $50m building enough hydrogen stations to service the population around Melbourne, around Sydney and on the highway in between... and even then, you *can't* go to Adelaide or Brisbane. On the other hand $26m covers basically the entirely of WA with fast charging stations.
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by ResistanceIsFutile »

Chuq wrote: Sun, 04 Apr 2021, 14:34 It's just a waste of money.. neither Hyundai (or Toyota for the Mirai) have announced a price for either of these, they both appear to be targetting fleets where they will lease you a number of them for a fixed term for a fixed cost. Probably because numbers provided overseas translate to something like a $120k+ starting cost (and on top of that, the manufacturers are *losing* money, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, each time they sell one).

But it's the infrastructure cost that is over the top. It's about $3m for a fully self contained solar+electrolysis+H2 fuel site. Compare that to $500k for a premium (multi stall, ultra rapid) charging site (or $100k for a 1-2 stall 50 kW site). But because you can't refuel at home, you also need 5-10x as many hydrogen fuelling locations. You need them in every part of every city, because if you had to do a 50 km return trip to the only hydrogen station in the city every time you needed to refuel, you'd get sick of that pretty quickly. So 6x the cost, 5-10x the volume and it's going to cost 30-60 times as much to cover the country with hydrogen as it would with ultra-rapid charging stations.

You'd need to spend close to $50m building enough hydrogen stations to service the population around Melbourne, around Sydney and on the highway in between... and even then, you *can't* go to Adelaide or Brisbane. On the other hand $26m covers basically the entirely of WA with fast charging stations.
It's not a waste of money.. it's called a "distraction". While we're all off chasing this fairy gas the years slip by...
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by reecho »

If California, the heaviest subsidized H2 market in the world cannot make it work, nobody can.

Imagine being offered $15,000 of free H2 with your new Toyota Mirai but you can't find any...

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/our-expe ... irk-nason-?
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by antiscab »

There are some users who are refueling at home, albiet at far lower pressure than the 700 bar needed for a "full" tank
70bar is practical

unless you're this fellow:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/true-pio ... el-jensen/
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by reecho »

antiscab wrote: Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 10:48
There are some users who are refueling at home, albiet at far lower pressure than the 700 bar needed for a "full" tank
70bar is practical
70 Bar is 10% fill. I wouldn't call it practical.
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by coulomb »

reecho wrote: Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 13:50 70 Bar is 10% fill. I wouldn't call it practical.
Perhaps Matt meant it's practical to fill to 70 bar, not that 10% is necessarily practical.

But 10% of 666 km might mean ≈50 km usable, like a severely depleted first generation Leaf or iMiEV. It could still do a lot of running around, depending on circumstances.
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by antiscab »

coulomb wrote: Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 14:01 But 10% of 666 km might mean ≈50 km usable, like a severely depleted first generation Leaf or iMiEV. It could still do a lot of running around, depending on circumstances.
yep, 66km, quite practical

Though compression being non-linear, 70bar is more than 10% of 700bar in terms of amount of H2 stored

add in a phev battery in parrallel with the 245v 6.5Ah nimh battery, and you'd be in business

I read an article about a fellow who did just that in the US, with a second hand Mirai he bought cheaply (trying to find it again now)
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by antiscab »

antiscab wrote: Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 14:30 Though compression being non-linear, 70bar is more than 10% of 700bar in terms of amount of H2 stored
to elaborate on this a little more, according to this paper, density to pressure ratio starts to drop measurably at around 100bar - https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1702/1702.06015.pdf
70 bar = 5.6kg/m3, but 700bar = 39kg/m3

This is compensated slightly by the gas going in cold due to expansion (also why the tank has to be able to hold 850bar for a 700bar fill due to heating back to ambient)

so the newest Mirai, with 661km range at 700bar has 95km at 70bar (though there would be a minimum operating pressure, below which maximum power would be reduced)
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by reecho »

coulomb wrote: Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 14:01
reecho wrote: Wed, 07 Apr 2021, 13:50 70 Bar is 10% fill. I wouldn't call it practical.
Perhaps Matt meant it's practical to fill to 70 bar, not that 10% is necessarily practical.

But 10% of 666 km might mean ≈50 km usable, like a severely depleted first generation Leaf or iMiEV. It could still do a lot of running around, depending on circumstances.
Which is fine for a classic I-Miev worth $5 to $10k. But for a FCEV worth $120k?
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by antiscab »

reecho wrote: Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 08:13 Which is fine for a classic I-Miev worth $5 to $10k. But for a FCEV worth $120k?
The fellow who was offgrid bought his Mirai for $5k (USD) second hand
not much resale value when there's nowhere to refuel

Sounds like an outstanding bargain, given the amount of platinum in the fuel cell, come recycling time

I don't see hydrogen taking off as a transport fuel either (at least for passenger cars)
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by reecho »

antiscab wrote: Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 09:25
reecho wrote: Fri, 09 Apr 2021, 08:13 Which is fine for a classic I-Miev worth $5 to $10k. But for a FCEV worth $120k?
The fellow who was offgrid bought his Mirai for $5k (USD) second hand
not much resale value when there's nowhere to refuel
Thought they were all leased. Interesting.
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by T1 Terry »

If this had hit the market 20 yrs ago, the world would have headed in a different direction as far as refueling networks ... but it didn't so trying to get this off the ground 20 yrs too late is never going to happen .... no matter how much Scomo seems fantasies about it. Just the fossil fuel industry trying anything it can to remain relevant and hinder wide spread electrification.
The same nonsense was floating about 15 to 20 yrs ago about fuel cells using methanol to replace batteries, solar panels and any other form of power generation/storage in the EV market place. Some tried it, discovered they had to buy the "special" methanol the manufacturing company sold because of impurities in the "store bought" stuff causing problem with membrane fouling .... no doubt it will require "Special" hydrogen for these fuel cells for the same reasons so storage tanks and refill stations at the company site and the hydrogen coming in by truck in liquid form .....

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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by Peter C in Canberra »

T1 Terry wrote: Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 10:15 If this had hit the market 20 yrs ago, the world would have headed in a different direction as far as refueling networks ... but it didn't so trying to get this off the ground 20 yrs too late is never going to happen .... no matter how much Scomo seems fantasies about it. Just the fossil fuel industry trying anything it can to remain relevant and hinder wide spread electrification...
I suspect that part of the reason for enthusiasm about hydrogen is that some people just don't really 'get' electrickery. It's a bit too abstract for them so they can't 'see' how it could really work. They can understand something concrete like a fuel that you put in a tank and it gets consumed to make a vehicle go. It's just more tangible. I really do suspect that for many it is more about gut feel than the product of rational analysis.
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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by T1 Terry »

Peter C in Canberra wrote: Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 07:51
T1 Terry wrote: Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 10:15 If this had hit the market 20 yrs ago, the world would have headed in a different direction as far as refueling networks ... but it didn't so trying to get this off the ground 20 yrs too late is never going to happen .... no matter how much Scomo seems fantasies about it. Just the fossil fuel industry trying anything it can to remain relevant and hinder wide spread electrification...
I suspect that part of the reason for enthusiasm about hydrogen is that some people just don't really 'get' electrickery. It's a bit too abstract for them so they can't 'see' how it could really work. They can understand something concrete like a fuel that you put in a tank and it gets consumed to make a vehicle go. It's just more tangible. I really do suspect that for many it is more about gut feel than the product of rational analysis.
About the only thing it can claim is the refill time,
Right now, though, the brand estimates somewhere to the tune of $15 a kilo for an end-consumer, or about $90 to fill the Nexo.
A rather expensive fast fill. It's still an electric car, so no ICE that anyone can feel they sort of understand how it works, a fuel cell and a traction battery to hold a bit of regen, but not a lot, only 1.5kWh capacity, not much more than my Gen 2 Prius and the traction battery in it is full half way down the hill heading into Adelaide. I wonder how much of the stored energy in the lithium battery will be used before the fuel cell fires up again ..... if they drained it to around 5% then yes, that would probably be enough storage for a reasonable down hill regen braking ability.
$90 will buy a lot of recharges so the pure EV will win on $$ /100km and the recharge time compared to refill time isn't really relevant on a trip, after 400km the time taken to get a coffee, have a nature break and maybe a snack and the average EV these days will have recharged enough to go another 400kms. If the "Stop, revive survive" of every 2 hrs is observed and recharge stations spaced accordingly, range anxiety wouldn't even raise its head, a refill at 50% SOC wouldn't take very long the get back to around the 80% to 90% SOC and that will certainly see the vehicle through the next 2 hrs driving ......
Recharging the hydrogen tank from the house roof top solar would cost a fortune in special equipment, plug and play with an EV .....

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Re: Hyundai Nexo

Post by Peter C in Canberra »

Absolutely agree. Repeated partial top ups every few 100km is the way to do a long trip in an EV. H2 doesn't really help and will be expensive. Best left for the applications that do not have low emissions alternatives.
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