Zoe energy use

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antiscab
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Zoe energy use

Post by antiscab » Sat, 28 Jul 2018, 09:55

Hi guys,

What kinda energy use are you seeing?
I drove 300km yesterday, used 45.5kwh to recharge.

Going from 10% to 100% took 42kwh, and I had a 3.5kwh top up charge.
All at 32A single phase.

I've heard reports that charge efficiency drops at slower charge rates, however, all postings of that nature seem to be measuring only apparent power not real power.
Matt
2011 Blade Electron mk6
2007 vectrix - 145'000km
1998 Prius - needs batt
1999 Prius - needs batt

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jonescg
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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by jonescg » Sat, 28 Jul 2018, 12:42

Nice - what was the average speed for your 300 km?
And 45.5 kWh suggests you were pretty close to electron fumes!

I think the charger is more efficient at full power (all three phases).
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by rhills » Sat, 28 Jul 2018, 13:42

Hi Matt,
antiscab wrote:
Sat, 28 Jul 2018, 09:55
...
Matt
2011 Blade Electron mk6
2007 vectrix - 145'000km
1998 Prius - needs batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
Methinks your signature block needs updating, yes? :D
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Jul 2014 - Jun 2018
Total Petrol: 586.8L
ODO: 42885
Av Consumption: 1.37 L/100km

antiscab
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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by antiscab » Sat, 28 Jul 2018, 14:14

Haha technically the zoe is my partners, though I get to use it fairly regularly.

Average speed I think was 55kmh, what the car reported. Most of the distance was 100kmh zones, but actual speeds were more like 80kmh due to traffic
Matt
2011 Blade Electron mk6
2007 vectrix - 145'000km
1998 Prius - needs batt
1999 Prius - needs batt

doggy
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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by doggy » Sat, 28 Jul 2018, 14:46

Hi Matt,

I did try to respond but for some reason my post has not reappeared.

I have been charging Zoe using a 32A EVSE but at only 15amps. Last night I added 45% which took 22.3, meaning 100% would have been around 49KWh.

Now, I cannot guarantee that the EVSE is truly measuring KWhrs or KVAs.

Also, it has been a little cold here and my battery was at 13degC. So the heat pump was going on along with fans. On top of that, the charger has diodes, triacs and other stuff which causes losses and these losses do not rise at the same rate as the charging current. So, I would always expect the overhead to increase as the charge rate is lower. So your experience and mine are probably fairly similar.

On the other hand, I would guess (I have no proof yet) that the 22kw three phase (3*32A) charging probably has similar overhead to what you are experiencing (in percentage terms). There might be a little more heat pump/fans but it will be for a shorter duration.

On top of all this stuff, there is the SOH. My SOH is 101% and those overseas have had SOH up to 105% when new. So, you can add an extra 5% to those batteries. Not sure what your SOH is, but it would be interesting. While looking at it (using CanZE) and other prowling around, I discovered my Zoe was built July 2017 so it is NOT a 2018 model! Maybe Renault shipped in a bunch of them last year and they are not yet all sold?

Other stuff that might interest you. I just checked my 96 modules and the balance is excellent. Maximum difference between highest and lowest cells is 3millivolts.

Another thing, when I did an R-Link update a few days ago, my car internet connection stopped working (so email, traffic jams, Tomtom live and other stuff stopped working). The SIM status showed plenty of signal but with status "Network Disconnected". I tried various things like turning off/on data sharing. Finally fixed it by removing and replacing fuse 31 for the TCU. It is in the glovebox. Those things have sprung back into life and the Network status is now "Connected". Interestingly, Zoe still has good signal in my semi-underground garage where no mobile phones operate.

With regards to range. When I travel around Sydney with 50/60/70/80 speed limits and lots of dreadful traffic lights, Zoe is averaging around 312Km.

On lots of short trips (all under 5km, locally) she does around 260km per charge.

I am much happier in tunnels now (not spewing gunk into the tunnels). Also happier at traffic lights (almost no energy consumption). Then there is the occasional BMW/Audi at the traffic lights where they cannot understand this little blue monster getting to 60/70 well before they do!

Regards,
Dave

PS- just realised why my earlier post did not appear. Rather than clicking the small "Submit", I clicked the big "Post Reply"!

[edit] PS2- after a couple of weeks charging only to about 80%, maximum cell difference- measured when SOC was 56%- was 12millivolts.

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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by doggy » Tue, 31 Jul 2018, 11:20

Hi Matt, I just tested my EVSE against a true watt hour meter and the two agree to within 2%. So, the figures I quoted above should be true kWH and not kVA.
I also found that people in the UK seem to be getting 20kWhr into their battery when charging at an indicated 22kW rate. This would indicate that three phase 32A charging is probably the most efficient in terms of energy into the battery.

I hope you are getting somewhere obtaining your "Activation Code" for Z.E. Services. I have no news yet.

Cheers,
Dave

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LouB
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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by LouB » Thu, 02 Aug 2018, 13:06

Hi
Once we had returned to the dealership (Sydney) from our test drive of the Zoe, the salesperson was very keen for us to put down a deposit. He explained that the vehicle had to be ordered and that it would take some weeks to delivery. In the meantime, he suggested we also order what he called the 'wall box' and that it could be installed by the time the car arrived. We politely declined and told him that for financial reasons we couldn't commit to anything before the end of September.

Though we both liked the Zoe, we did not particularly like the $50,000+ price. My hope is that in coming months competing entries into the market, such as the new Nissan Leaf and the Hyundai Ioniq, would drive prices down.

As to the EVSE that Renault would have installed, I'm not sure that it would suit us. It appears to be the standard, hard wired, Chargemaster type. We have a solar PV array and 3 phase power and so would be better off with a 32A unit that allows different charge settings to be manually selected. I also understand, that unlike here, Renault supplies the EVSE for no extra charge in Europe.

Another concern is: that while the Zoe uses the Type2 (Mennekes) plug and AC charging the world appear to be moving to the CCS system that is compatible with both DC and AC. It could be that suitable adapters may be available to overcome some, if not all, of these negatives; if only the price was more reasonable.

I welcome any comments and solutions.

Lou

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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by Bryce » Thu, 02 Aug 2018, 17:01

Hi there Lou- you probably know this, but for other readers: CCS being used here is CCS2, which is Mennekes (ac) plus the 2 dc pins at the bottom. Plug is compatable, but there is no way to use dc back to ac (Zoe currently is ac only - but 3 phase/32A max per phase so not too shabby but no fast dc charge pins) so no conversion plug would be possible.
Rumour is the Zoe will be upgraded to include ccs2 charging in 2019.
Cheers
Bryce
AEVA Vic Branch Secretary
AEVA national newsletter editor
Current EV drives: 2011 Leaf, 2001 Berlingo conversion
Past drive: 2011 Blade Getz
Past Conversions: DC Berlingo, AC Berlingo, AC Sprinter

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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by doggy » Thu, 02 Aug 2018, 20:20

There might be CCS2 on the Zoe in 2019 but I would bet anything it will not be in Oz then. There is a 6month wait for Zoes in the UK and they are still shipping the R90s there. The R110 will be out soon but RHD units a while yet in the UK. As for 2019, there are nil announcements yet but you would probably see them at the Geneva Motor Show or a little before. The rumours on the main UK forum (SpeakEV) are that there will actually be no further changes in 2019.

When I was thinking of our Zoe, I specifically asked RA when the R110 would arrive here and was told not for at least another year. Given any CCS2 model will be after that, I would not expect anything CCS2 in 2019.

We have spent 50% of each of the past 9 yrs in France (mainly) and even small villages have fast AC charging. I saw three chargers in one village of 300 people last year. So I do not think people are desperate in Europe for DC charging on the Zoe. Sure it will come- sometime. Folks in the UK seem to be regularly doing long commutes on the motorways. Some of them have the Q90 (43kW charge rate) and there are quite a few with the older and smaller battery packs but most have 22kW charging. They seem to be managing fine but of course the UK is better equipped with Motorway charging spots.

On the matter of the R110, I was initially keen to get that one because of the faster acceleration to 110 (indeed, mainly from 80-110). However now that I have Zoe, I find the power just fine. It would be different in France where the speed limit is 130. I reckon I would burn more kW with an R110 but we just do not need it.

I bought an EVSE with 10/15/32A single phase charging. It was $750 and works well for me. With 270-300 range around town I am not charging very often and mainly using 15A from a 20A welding outlet in my garage. I might upgrade it to 32A some day but really do not need it unless I hugely crank up the kilometres. I see no need for a fixed wall charger at home and prefer the flexibility of the solid portable unit. The 22KW charging will get used on regional trips (i.e. to Canberra).

I am also procuring an OpenEVSE 40A 3 phase charger which will allow me to use three phase AC outlets (with permission and paying) out in the countryside.

Regards,
Dave

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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by doggy » Fri, 03 Aug 2018, 08:18

Hi Lou,

I am not sure if the situation has changed, but I ordered my Zoe from the same place about a month ago and it arrived in one week (which was one week quicker than the estimated delivery). Elie was good to deal with. On the other hand, he did not have to sell us anything. We wanted one, so we wanted to try it out. We needed it to get up our humungous driveway of 33% and it does (they organised the test drive to take in the biggest hills they could find). Easiest sale in the world!

I agree about not liking the price. If we lived in almost any other first world country, there would be rebates and other benefits (UK pays for charging points, gives rebates, no London taxes). France has big rebates and has made decisions about no more ICE cars. US has good rebates. Norway has benefits too great to list here. Basically, governments here do not care about pollution in our cities or the environment. There is not and never has been long term bipartisan planning and strategic thinking about a whole lot of things. Simplistically, we just dig stuff out of the ground and ship it offshore for processing. In particular, air quality in a lot of European cities is driving EV incentives plus an overall desire to reduce emissions, Paris Climate Agreement etc. Here in Sydney, air quality continues to deteriorate. We moved 10yrs ago because the place we lived was constantly accumulating black soot from the main road and the whole family developed asthmatic issues- all from vehicle emissions. I think it was the UK which estimated it could save 1.6billion a year if there was no car exhaust.

So, here in Aus it is a bit of a catch-22. EVs are expensive (battery prices, low manufacturing volumes). Because of high prices and low volumes here, demand is low so manufacturers are reluctant to import and sell here because of the large infrastructure and training costs. Renault is to be congratulated for actually bringing the Zoe. Tesla is the most amazing with what it is doing but even then, Australia is unlikely to be a big thing for them. I am prepared to bet the Model 3 will be a lot pricier and a lot later than people are thinking. But I REALLY hope Tesla succeeds big time. On top of that our exchange rate has been sinking and there is not much happening to push it higher so I doubt EV prices will drop.

In my case, we decided to ignore the price, to try and do our tiny bit for the environment. There is definitely a feel good factor when stuck in traffic jams and traffic lights not spewing exhaust and more so in tunnels. Here in Sydney we might be getting this big new tunnel. There is (of course) huge focus on sucking out the exhaust. In some countries, they would say "okay we will build this tunnel but as it won't be finished for 15 years, we will plan for only EV vehicles, pedestrians and cyclists being allowed and that will cut the cost by $xxxx.... "

A further compounding problem is that our exchange rate is dropping, pushing up import prices. When we bought Zoe, I had a look at the price for the same thing in France, without subsidies and without their battery rental options. It was not much different. So, given transport and setup costs the price is not outrageous....even though it is outrageous compared with ICE vehicles.

So, having made our decision, we are actually saving quite a lot of money compared with the Volvo we have replaced. Our second car (Peugeot 508GT turbo diesel) is hardly being driven- only interstate trips now. The Volvo was costing $247.50 per 1,000km in petrol. The Zoe is costing $37.96 for the exact same journeys and we are about to switch to offpeak charging which will make it $22.78/1,000km. Servicing costs should be less. The real data I have seen for the earlier Zoe 22kWH batteries suggests ours SHOULD last a long time. Particularly as, unlike some other cars, the Zoe uses thermal battery management; indeed the first Zoe from pre-2012 was extensively tested with regard to battery management here in Australia. On these figures, we would need to keep Zoe for about 8-10yrs and would more than save the difference versus an ICE car. But a lot of this is still unknown territory. I absolutely do not criticise anyone who finds the price of EVs in Australia a big turn off. The hope is that as other governments around the world mandate change, the EV volumes will increase and the prices will come down. One day, EVs MIGHT be cheaper than ICE cars.

Cheers,
Dave

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LouB
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Re: Zoe energy use

Post by LouB » Fri, 03 Aug 2018, 10:07

Hi Bryce and Doggy

You have both provided some very useful information. I completely agree with Doggy's view of the horrible situation in Oz, with lack of incentives, increasing pollution and active government discouragement, all painting a bleak picture for EV uptake. But, as with the increasing and unstoppable numbers installing solar on home roofs, things will change. We just have to resign ourselves to being the wooden spooners.

My wife and I are also driven more by the desire to get away from fossil fuels, with their resultant fumes and greenhouse gas burden than any economic advantage. We would simply prefer to have a little more choice of vehicle. Except for Teslas (totally beyond our reach) there are, at this present moment only two new passenger cars available: the BMW i3 and the Zoe.
We tried the BMW and almost instantly decided it was not for us. The Zoe suited us (staid oldies) much more in our envisaged role of shopping vehicle and city runabout. Unless we get to test drive either the 2018 Nissan Leaf or the Hyundai Ioniq within the next few months, and really like one of them best, we will definitely go with the Zoe.

As this thread is really about energy use in the Zoe, I would ask anyone who has tried one of the public charging points for their experience.
Were you able to find one that accepted the Zoe's type 2 plug or did you have to use a type 2 to type1 adaptor?
I understand that the NRMA charge points cannot take the type2 connector.

We would choose to charge at home 95% of the time but one never knows when available range might be optimistically overestimated due to unexpected detours, low temps, etc.

Cheers
Lou

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Wanting Zoe experience articles for EV News

Post by Bryce » Fri, 03 Aug 2018, 11:38

Hi Zoe owners – Bryce (editor of EV News, our national newsletter) here.

I am putting together a companion lift-out for the Oct-Dec edition (the Expo edition) of EV News.

The lift-out will be called EV Buyers Guide’, and (hopefully) will include everything you need to know to choose, buy, charge and look after an EV.

It will include a summary of all the BEVs and PHEVs currently on the market in Australia. I am also hoping to be able to intersperse the summaries with owner reviews. (Given we are the AEVA, this is what we best offer to the EV buying public!)

AND, this is where you – the owners on this forum - come in. ;-)

I am looking for articles following the following template on your Zoe ownership experience:
• Note: max 750 words (plus a pic-optional)
• Why you chose a Zoe
• Your option choices (not that there a lot with a Zoe!)
• Your buying experience as it relates relating to dealer EV knowledge & time taken for delivery
• Your likes about it since taking ownership
• Any niggles you may be finding with the car (if any)
• Your EVSE installation experience
• Your actual EV range vs the window sticker/manufacturer stated ones
• Would you recommend it to someone else?
• Deadline: September 1st

If you’re interested in supplying such an article, please email me at bryceg@zoho.com

Many thanks
Bryce
AEVA Vic Branch Secretary
AEVA national newsletter editor
Current EV drives: 2011 Leaf, 2001 Berlingo conversion
Past drive: 2011 Blade Getz
Past Conversions: DC Berlingo, AC Berlingo, AC Sprinter

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