Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by jonescg » Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 20:20

Edit - Due to the very high cost of dangerous goods certification, we cannot offer these cells at competitive prices. Even one pallet of cells would need to be shipped in it's own sea container, costing at least $5000. This would make the price of the cells closer to $70 each, which is clearly too much.

Maybe one day if the regulations change we can try again, but for now, these cells will remain out of reach of most Australians. If the price ain't right, no-one's buying.




I figured we should start an official sale thread.

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Great news - an offer we can't refuse!
We can land these cells for AUD$66 including GST*, however we need to crack 1000 cells in the order before August.
Edit - Exchange rate has been getting worse for imports, so the price has had to be updated to $66 each. Sorry, but that's what a recovering economy does.

I brought 64 EIG cells in for a couple of friends over east. Rod kindly let us arrange the shipping through EV-Power which went through seamlessly (expensive, but that's DGs by airfreight for you). We have since decided to bring more in since they really are an impressive cell. Zero motorcycles are using them in their 2012 line of bikes with no reported problems.

These are Li(MiMnCo)O2 cells, otherwise known as NMC. They offer the high energy density of LiMn, the power of LiCo and the safety of LiFe. 174 Wh/kg and 370 Wh/l means a 24 kWh battery will only weigh 140 kg, and occupy 65 litres. Nominal cell voltage is 3.65 V, charge to 4.15 V and never below 2.50 V. A spec sheet can be found Here

Before you ask, the F014 cells are only available as 5000+ orders and the C040 cell doesn't exist yet. The C020 has been their best developed product so they are obviously focussing on that.

They come as 20 Ah pouch which needs to be built into an appropriate polycarbonate box and terminated using copper clamps and stainless screws. EIG won't sell us their module system, but we've devised a system which works just as well.

26 V, 60Ah: (all copper links will be tinned)
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26 V, 80 Ah (left) and 26 V 40 Ah (right)
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The boards can be cut down to size for lower voltages if needed, and may be easily flipped for making a return trip. It's just a matter of telling us which side you want the brass nuts soldered to.

These cells are really ideal for EVs as they have the best combination of power and energy per unit weight and volume.

Email me on chris@ev-power.com.au for more information and hopefully we can get a big order in soon!
Last edited by jonescg on Thu, 03 Oct 2013, 11:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by Richo » Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 20:39

jonescg wrote: We have since decided to bring more in since they really are an impressive cell.


Energy wise they are great.
Power wise they aren't any better.

Are there any links to destructive testing?
Nail puncture, shorting, over charging tests etc
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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by BigMouse » Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 20:55

Disclaimer: What I write below, I write as a potential customer. I'm not trying to badmouth these cells, just documenting my concerns as somebody actively shopping for an EV battery pack.

They are impressive, yes. But the price is just shocking. That's $4.25/Ah, nearly 4x the price of a calb cell. Sure, it gets better when you consider the higher voltage (and thus higher energy per Ah), but not that much.

CALB CA60 @ $1.32/Ah: $0.41/WHr
EIG @ $85/cell: $1.16/WHr

Still nearly 3 times the cost per unit energy.

The added cost and complexity of termination and packaging are also a big obstacle. I assume they have to be clamped to prevent swelling. Have you come up with a reliable method of transitioning from tabs to cable?

These seem like an alternative to the A123 pouches, or for those who are looking to maximize range (as in your CRX) at all costs.

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by jonescg » Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 21:17

Indeed, the high price blows. Until they see more cells being sold in Australia we will just have to wear the US$58.60 EXW price. Shipping, customs, GST and the falling AUD means we get reamed on all sides. The margin we add is literally 8%. Our aim is simply to get them into the country and into regular use so that the price can come down.

We also have a chicken and egg situation with pricing - they won't give a price until we give a number, and we won't commit to a number unless we know the price. So all we can do is offer a range.

Richo - yes, they don't have the power density of LiCo, but they are safer and the energy density makes up for it. I think these cells are a peak in the performance landscape chart. I will dig up their QC sheet in a minute.

Bigmouse - The cell assembly is not nearly as difficult as you might think. I've spent nearly a grand developing and testing the system and I'm confident of it's functionality and it's ease of assembly. The cells are trimmed and hole-punched before sending out, or we can assemble them into sub-packs. Sure they aren't as convenient as prismatic format cells, but that's the bleeding edge of lithium chemistry for you. The cables would connect to L-shaped lugs with 4 screws into the pack and one 6 mm hole at right angles to accommodate the cable lug. Yes they will need to be supported by a box which applies slight compression.

In about 4 years time when the price of these cells are low enough, the next best chemistry will be out there and no-one will want EIGs Image

Found this publication from NASA:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 025423.pdf
Last edited by jonescg on Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 11:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 22:35

BigMouse wrote:These seem like an alternative to the A123 pouches,


A123 Systems is now now B456 Systems

and that isn't jokeing

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by Sutho » Mon, 22 Jul 2013, 23:46

You should also consider Kokam...

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by BigMouse » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 02:35

Adverse Effects wrote:
BigMouse wrote:These seem like an alternative to the A123 pouches,


A123 Systems is now now B456 Systems

and that isn't jokeing
That's not actually true. The holder of the assets of A123 at the time of its bankruptcy was renamed to B456 so that the company that bought them could use the A123 name and buy the assets. Otherwise it would have been A123 selling their stuff to A123. B456 was only an in-between name.

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by jonescg » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 02:56

Sutho - cheers mate; Kokams make these cells look cheap Image Although Kokams might have a slightly lower energy density, they do have a higher C-rating.

I think their volumetric energy density is what would draw the well-heeled EV enthusiast. You can have a pack of the same kWh as CALBs, but they take up half the space. For anyone who's looking to build a functional EV they might cost 3 times more per kWh but you get twice the boot space and 40% more GVM allowance.

A123 cells are effectively unobtainium again now that genuine cells are damn near impossible to source (if you do find them through legit sources, they are the same price as EIGs) and the cheap stuff is B and C grade rubbish.

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by Sutho » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 03:29

jonescg wrote: Sutho - cheers mate; Kokams make these cells look cheap Image Although Kokams might have a slightly lower energy density, they do have a higher C-rating.

I think their volumetric energy density is what would draw the well-heeled EV enthusiast. You can have a pack of the same kWh as CALBs, but they take up half the space. For anyone who's looking to build a functional EV they might cost 3 times more per kWh but you get twice the boot space and 40% more GVM allowance.

A123 cells are effectively unobtainium again now that genuine cells are damn near impossible to source (if you do find them through legit sources, they are the same price as EIGs) and the cheap stuff is B and C grade rubbish.


I agree entirely...and the EIG cells do have a slightly higher energy density, but maybe check this before you place your order:

viewtopic.php?title=kokam-high-power-li ... 322#p40354

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Sutho

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by BigMouse » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 05:16

Sutho wrote:I agree entirely...and the EIG cells do have a slightly higher energy density, but maybe check this before you place your order:

viewtopic.php?title=kokam-high-power-li ... 322#p40354

Cheers,
Sutho
$0.85/Wh is more reasonable and only twice as much as the CALB cells. Still, that would turn my $13,000 pack in to a $26,000 pack, to save some weight and volume. For me, conversion cost is more important than payload. That's obviously not the case for all conversions.

I look forward to seeing some more conversions done with these cells (either the EIG or the Kokam ones). I'll stay at the poor end of the market and watch from down here ;-)

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Cancelled - EIG cells available through EV-Power!

Post by Sutho » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 14:58

BigMouse wrote:$0.85/Wh is more reasonable and only twice as much as the CALB cells. Still, that would turn my $13,000 pack in to a $26,000 pack, to save some weight and volume. For me, conversion cost is more important than payload. That's obviously not the case for all conversions.


It's obviously all about performance. There is no way the standard CALB, Thundersky or similar cells can deliver the current that the Kokam and EIG cells can. When you are looking for an average of 4C to 6C and sustained peaks of 12C, there are not many options....and you need to spend the money to get them.

In general Kokam can provide a slightly higher C-rate than EIG, but if the application is weight critical (i.e. racing) then EIG can offer up to about a 16% weight saving for the cells alone.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 17:02

I also believe we, as members of the AEVA, are doing a bit of a disservice to the movement by building heavy, short-range vehicles. Yes, that's usually all we can (or can't!) afford; this stuff is really expensive.

But when the peanut gallery kicks your tyres and says "What if I want to drive to Bunbury?" you wind up telling them they should change their lifestyle to suit their car. It never goes down well. These kinds of cells offer a long-range option, but indeed, you pay for it.
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Post by Sutho » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 17:10

I need some of the non-existent 40Ah EIG cells. Did they indicate to you if/when they would manufacture these? I contacted them some time ago and didn't have much joy.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 17:13

They just told be they are still in development Image and that was about a month ago.
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Post by BigMouse » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 18:19

Sutho wrote: It's obviously all about performance. There is no way the standard CALB, Thundersky or similar cells can deliver the current that the Kokam and EIG cells can. When you are looking for an average of 4C to 6C and sustained peaks of 12C, there are not many options....and you need to spend the money to get them.

In general Kokam can provide a slightly higher C-rate than EIG, but if the application is weight critical (i.e. racing) then EIG can offer up to about a 16% weight saving for the cells alone.
It's all about performance? An average of 4-6C is pretty high for a road-going car. It's probably quite normal for a racing application though. That said, new CALB grey cells have shown promising results approaching the numbers you've quoted. They're obviously much heavier though.
jonescg wrote: I also believe we, as members of the AEVA, are doing a bit of a disservice to the movement by building heavy, short-range vehicles. Yes, that's usually all we can (or can't!) afford; this stuff is really expensive.

But when the peanut gallery kicks your tyres and says "What if I want to drive to Bunbury?" you wind up telling them they should change their lifestyle to suit their car. It never goes down well. These kinds of cells offer a long-range option, but indeed, you pay for it.
It's all about range? Obviously different users have different priorities.

My calculations for my BMW conversion (coming up after the 300zx is finished) yield the key results below:

- CALB CA70 cells, 114 in series.
- 0-100km/hr ~6 seconds pulling a peak (for less than 2sec) of 9C from the pack.
- Post conversion weight of 1550kg, leaving ~200kg margin below gross weight. That's enough for two occupants and a small amount of luggage. Yes, I'll lose the back seat. Good thing it's a coupe.
- Range (80% DOD, ignoring regen) 164km @ 80km/hr avg (hwy), 200km @ 60km/hr avg (mix)
- Battery cost $13-14k, at today's exchange rates

For a street car, those performance numbers are pretty good. Comparable to a stock BMW M3 of the same era. 160km is enough range to get me from Wollongong to the Sydney CBD and back on a charge, on the freeway. Add a few percent to that for regen and there's a comfortable margin.

I think the biggest disservice we're doing to the movement isn't the weight, or even the range (200km is very usable even in Australia). It's the price.

If the goal is ultimate performance at any cost, the EIG or Kokam cells suit that.
If the goal is ultimate range at any cost, the EIG or Kokam cells suit that.
My goal is reasonable performance and range, at a price point that won't make the general public's eyes water.
Last edited by BigMouse on Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 08:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Sutho » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 19:14

BigMouse wrote:My goal is reasonable performance and range, at a price point that won't make the general public's eyes water.


I think we all have the same goal. Image

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Post by BigMouse » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 19:34

Sutho wrote:
BigMouse wrote:My goal is reasonable performance and range, at a price point that won't make the general public's eyes water.


I think we all have the same goal. Image
Yeah, I'm sure we do in the end. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love what you're doing for EVs with your DeLorean and the Radical. I also appreciate what EV Power is doing by introducing these new options in to the Australian market. There's just a difference in means and priorities from one conversion to the other.

It would be great to see these (or the Kokam) cells brought to Australia in higher quantities and at lower prices. Unfortunatley, I can't justify (or afford) the premium for my own conversions so I won't be able to participate in the first batch.
Last edited by BigMouse on Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Canberra32 » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 20:10

See now that's what I'm looking for :)

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Post by Taxman » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 20:39

Those packs look pro, what is the reason for the copper joiners, rather than flipping the cells and joining the tabs together? Are they different size tabs or something?

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Post by Taxman » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 20:42

It's just that I'm figuring out how to put together an A123 pack at the moment, and this is a different looking setup.

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Post by Sutho » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 21:08

And then there's this sort of behaviour holding the price up:

http://hexus.net/business/news/componen ... omponents/

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Post by BigMouse » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 22:54

Sutho wrote: And then there's this sort of behaviour holding the price up:

http://hexus.net/business/news/componen ... omponents/


Man, that's shady. Glad to hear they got caught and fined, but do you think the price will come down as a result? I doubt it. Now they have a collective $875 million to amortize over every cell they produce.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 23:01

Taxman wrote: Those packs look pro, what is the reason for the copper joiners, rather than flipping the cells and joining the tabs together? Are they different size tabs or something?


The cells have tabs which are offset to one side - if you lay it on the table the tabs would touch the table. So there is a real risk of a short if you simply flipped them. Also, the diagonal bus link means you can have an odd or even number of cells in a column and have no difficulty turning around for the return trip. If you did flip the polarity you are limited to odd numbers of cells per column. EIG's own termination system is more or less identical.

The copper conductor is essential for handling the currents and wicking heat away from the cells. Just joining the tabs isn't enough, you really need some heat sinking.
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Post by PlanB » Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 23:11

Ironic they should get done for price fixing when cells like the NCR18650B are cheaper now than they have ever been, maybe it's cause & effect?
Amazing economies of scale, Teslas orders for these batteries are in the tens of millions of cells.

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Post by jonescg » Mon, 29 Jul 2013, 01:55

Hey everyone! Great news - our demands for a lower price have been met!

We can now offer these cells at $60 each, landed in Perth, including GST. It might end up being a little bit more (like $66 each) if we get reamed with unforseen port fees, but this works out to about $0.82/Wh, which is as good as we can get for now. We still need to crack the 1000 cell figure, and we have a month to do so.

If we can't crack 1000 cells, it's not going ahead. Well not at these prices anyway. Let me know!

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