A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Gabz » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 03:32

g4qber wrote: Note that e-station did NOT put a 15A lead on the 32A wall box, it was sold without any leads.
I added the lead myself after testing that the volt and imiev did not draw more than 15 amps on full charge.
The reason that I upgraded to the 32A wall box is that the volt didn't negotiate a 14A charge on the 16A wall box.


And the problem with this is your basic meter can't detect inrush current.

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 15:00

"yet Marty's volt is drawing 16A
my volt draws around 14-15A"

Hi again,

Well what we did was the sparky was here to tag a brickies hoist in a contruction area, so we asked him to wire up a 20 amp circuit, single phase, and attach a meter, then plug in the Clipper Creek.

It started at 14.5 amps, but he said he had to go work on the construction site, so every now and then I would go and check his meter, and it moved up to 16 amps over time. He said the draw may vary, but I didnt watch it consistently for two hours while it took approx 2.7 kw per hour to charge up. I unplugged it after an hour, and it was showing 16 amps at that point, then I plugged it back in, came back and hour later and it was fully charged. No faults showing on either the Volt, or the EVSE from Clipper Creek.

When it was fully charged, I had to go to a meeting , so after that , drove back and plugged in again using the Clipper Creek, and then it only charged at 15 amps (maybe because I was only "topping up" ) It still had nearly a full charge in it.

Saw the link at showing 15 amps at a "Charge Spot" , however on a couple of pages of Clipper Creek (which is what we are basically talking about) it specifies 16 amps (Which is what our tests show , using a meter, and the Clipper Creek, on a 20 amp circuit (single phase), plugged into our Volt)

References for Clipper Creek model 20 showing it requires 20 amp circuit, and draws 16 amps, are on page 13 of the following link.. as tested by Clipper Creek.

Here is the link....20 amp CB, 16 amps Draw, Clipper Creek LCS -20 ...please scroll down to page 13...

So clearly, from our tests, it shows that the Holden Volt draws 16 amps at times, using the Clipper Creek.

As the Holden Volt is supposed to support 3.3 kw charging

See this media release from Holden here Holden Volt 3.3 kw under 4 hrs charging dedicated Circuit

then maybe it is ok with 16 amps? (This part is a bit more technical than I can understand at this point without further study) .

However, as Clipper Creek recommends a 20 amp circuit, and I am interested in low cost charging infrastructure for Imievs, leafs and Volts, at different point of the motoring highways, I would be recommending to users , that they plug into a 20 amp , not a 15 amp, based on our tests and Clipper Creeks. (This is assuming they were using a Clipper Creek LCS 20 on a Volt eg. )

If say , with the Motel I am currently working at, we provided a 20 amp dedicated circuit for people to charge for free, I am hoping that we could plug in either a Volt, an Imiev, a Leaf, or any Aeva members conversions, without tripping our rcd 20 amp single phase dedicated circuit, then that would be a great result for us!

I currently only have influence on deciding what to provide EV charging wise, here at work, for another 2 weeks. Then my job moves me to another Company. So no more "bending budget" here any more!

If someone turned up in a basic Volt with 6 amps or 10 amp charging, we have an outlet for that . But we see BEV's becoming more mainstream, and want to be able to provide a service for others as well, without spending thousands on very expensive infastrucure.

Lower Cost charging infrastructure is the best way of spreading charge points more rapidly, in Australia, at this point of EV adoption in OZ, in my humble opinion. Others may differ in opinion of course Image
Last edited by marty11 on Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 15:41

great info marty

yep go for the highest common denominator
ie. the Volt and LEAF.
I shall try to test with current draw with photomac's LEAF.
the i-MiEV seems to be more conservative with its current draw.

how does one calculate the amps drawn?
3.3kW / 220V = 15 amps
3.3kW / 240V = 13.75 amps
Last edited by g4qber on Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 04:47, edited 1 time in total.

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by antiscab » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 19:12

g4qber wrote:
how does one calculate the amps drawn?
3.3kW / 220V = 15 amps
3.3kW / 240V = 13.75 amps


depends:

If the charger in the car is capable of higher power, than the current drawn will be the max indicated by the EVSE (give or take a couple of amps as the current control isn't that accurate as you found out with Brian's leaf)

If the charger in the car is only capable of 3.3kw, than the actual current drawn from the mains will be a function of mains voltage and the SOC of the battery (as was the case with the volt)
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 21:00

ok interesting ..

so if the Volt is only capable of 3.3 kw charging, I wonder how we were drawing 16 amps?

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by antiscab » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 23:34

marty11 wrote: so if the Volt is only capable of 3.3 kw charging, I wonder how we were drawing 16 amps?


The 3.3kw number is just for the marketing guys, there's three hard limits:
the charger max current input, the chargers max current output and the charger's max power.

There's also the max current indicated by the EVSE, but that isn't overly accurate

how much current is being drawn depends largely upon which limit the charger is operating in.
A more powerful charger limited by the EVSE command will spend more of the large cycle at the EVSE current limit

what was the mains voltage at the time?
and battery voltage?



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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 23:54

ok. .

Did not notice or pay attention to mains Voltage at the time, nor the battery Voltage.

Maybe the max current input is in fact 16 amps, not 15.

Thanks for your input! Image

If I get the chance when the sparky works next I will see if I can test more, but am at a point where I am happy the Volt doesnt trip the rcd 20 amp circuit whilst charging using the Clipper Creek LCS-20.

Next time the sparky comes around I will also ask if he has time to try a 15 amp'd rcd cb, but feel it will trip for sure.

So is a 20 amp rcd circuit worthwhile putting in, for say general aeva members, for charging, do you think?
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Sun, 02 Mar 2014, 17:34

ok, so after a few days of testing, I also have the clipper creek not charging my Volt. That is, not on a 15 amp circuit!

So I had a 20 amp circuit put in next to the 15 amp.

It charges every time.

So the conclusion is.

The Clipper Creek is not faulty re charging the Volt.

The Volt is also not faulty.

Charging on a 15 amp circuit (with RCD) is faulty.

Charging on a 20 amp circuit (with RCD) is fine for the Volt, fine for the Clipper Creek.

ps. As Joseph said with his Volt, the 15 amp sometimes works, sometimes doesnt, with the Clipper Creek and the Holden Volt.

So it appears the Clipper Creek tech specs are correct. The Clipper Creek specifies a 20 amp circuit should be used with this evse.

After testing, it appears correct advice.

Enjoy your day!

Marty
Last edited by marty11 on Sun, 02 Mar 2014, 06:35, edited 1 time in total.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Sun, 02 Mar 2014, 18:21

marty11 wrote: So I had a 20 amp circuit put in next to the 15 amp.

It charges every time.
So do you have a 15 A plug on the end of the Clipper Creek EVSE? And you used to plug that into a dedicated 15 A GPO with a 16 A breaker, or combined breaker and RCD? And now you have a second GPO (with a 20 A socket?) that has a 20 A breaker, or breaker and RCD combined.

Forgive me if I get this wrong, but your conclusion is therefore that the breaker was letting go due to excessive total current, rather than excessive residual current? I assume that the 20 A RCD has the same trip limit, presumably 30 mA.

Well done on finding a viable solution, in any case.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Sun, 02 Mar 2014, 18:39

Hi,

I loaned the Clipper Creek evse from Joseph in WA.

It came with a 15 amp plug on it.

The circuits I tested on , for Joseph.

1. an all weather outdoor oulet, with a switch , wired to a breaker 15amp combined with RCD

2. The other is an all weather outdoor outlet , with a switch, wired to a 20 amp circuit which has a 20 amp breaker combined with RCD .
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by acmotor » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 00:20

Mmmm, 10A, 16A, 20A, 32A RCDs all have the same 30mA trip for current unbalance so it seems unlikely that the RCD was the issue from that point of view.

I think coulomb is asking the right questions.... What current/type MCB/RCD is used on each circuit ?
Are they C curve or D curve spec for current trip. A part number would be useful. There are a few variations on the theme.
Some pics maybe ? 15A is not a common breaker size, 16A is in Oz.

Also, has the RCD function been tested from the socket (not at CB) on the new circuit with an RCD tester ? If so, what was the trip current and trip time ?

All this is because 15A is 15A, same electrons, out of a 15A or 20A circuit. Both should function.

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 06:46

riddle me this
why these EVSEs trip:

a) 10A mitsu
b) 15A evseupgrade nissan orig
c) chargeamps 16A swedish

BY THE WAY I've decided to rid myself of the volt to Thomas B.
The other day I had to power cycle as the a/c would not select the outside air option.
This has already happened 5 times now since delivery.

I'm wondering if I want to subject myself to be a guinea pig for the i3 REX.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Mon, 03 Mar 2014, 23:02

Hi all ..

I appreciate the questions., and am just an end user.

I paid a sparky to test.

I paid a sparky to set up two charge points in the process for EV users.

I do not intend to spendmore money ,as I have repeatedly spelled out, Clipper Creek asks for a 20 amp circuit.

As i have had problems with a 15 amp circuit, and the manufacturer insists on 20 amp, should you wish to engage in further technical deliberations about why the manufacturer wants a 20 amp circuit, then by all means please contact Clipper Creek and they can address each technical question one by one.

I will watch on...

But as I have paid for and tested the Volt with a Clipper Creek, on both a 15 amp and 20 amp circuit, I feel I have spent enough time and money, and reached the same conclusion as Clipper Creek.

Use the 20 amp circuit yourself. I paid for one, now its your turn.

IE unless you have a 20 amp circuit you can use?

Why the reluctance to believe Clipper Creek or even test on an 20 amp circuit with RCD?

All the best wishes! Marty Image

ps.. I understand that there might be variationson the themes used in different circuits, perhaps that explains why Clipper Creek recommends 20 amps?

ps.. Thanks to Joseph I think it was for putting me onto the weatherproof outdoor 20 amp switch ..no problems with that + Clipper Creek + 20 amp circuit.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by acmotor » Tue, 04 Mar 2014, 04:42

I understand where you are coming from marty.
Sorry if I was hassling.
I just like to get to the facts.
Clipper Creek suggesting the 20A circuit may be quite right, but it is fair to ask why.
Anyway, cheers. I'm glad you have found a solution.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Tue, 04 Mar 2014, 15:08

would using 1 phase of a 32A 3 phase socket count as 20A+ power supply?

I have already tried this at the regal place car park.
volt tripped.

emailed City of Perth to let them know that the RCD/CB had to be reset.

http://www.recargo.com/sites/8216
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by acmotor » Tue, 04 Mar 2014, 16:08

J,
IIRC we did the same test on a 3 phase 20A circuit earlier on and the volt also tripped that. This was on a circuit that was 12 months old and had just been checked as part of the electrical safety tests. It was tagged with trip current and trip time.
Marty, no cost option, post a pic of the RCD in your meter box showing part number so we can research further. This may be of great service to others with the tripping problem.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Wed, 05 Mar 2014, 00:23

ac
do you have 32A 3 phase at your research facility?

I don't remember pulling out my 32A 3phase male clipsal to 15A female plug cable for testing.
we just used your 15A socket.
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 05 Mar 2014, 00:34

We have both 20A and 32A 3 phase 5 pin and adapters here to 15A single for both.
We tried the 20A as it was adjacent to the 15A single when we were testing your volt.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by antiscab » Wed, 05 Mar 2014, 04:47

I wonder if the neutral has it's own CB, perhaps with a lower trip rating.

The neutral wire is commonly (but not always) lighter than the phase wires
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Wed, 05 Mar 2014, 13:37

antiscab wrote: I wonder if the neutral has it's own CB, perhaps with a lower trip rating.

I've never heard of a breaker on a neutral. I think it would be dangerous; if it tripped before the active(s), then a stopped appliance could be live.
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 05 Mar 2014, 17:25

Isn't preset RCD practice to break all three phases and neutral and the test resistor circuit with the one multipole contactor ? The MCB and TCB currents being determined by the three active lines individually.

The trip current is common to all L1, L2, L3 and N lines. That is it is a balance that all current that flows must be on those lines and not between any line and the earth line, up to the 30mA limit. (Note, some installations have 100mA limit and time delays to allow for large machinery and heating elements etc)

The neutral pin on some 5pin 3phase connectors is smaller than the phase pins but still rated at the full current of the connector. This may have been historical ? As early connectors were only 4 pin and the neutral was added later to the design ?
The wiring feeding the socket is all the same CSA ( protective earth may be smaller ).

So, a 3 phase RCD protected outlet feeding one phase to neutral only ( 5 pin socket ) has the same 30mA trip behaviour as a single phase RCD protected outlet.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 06 Mar 2014, 04:56

acmotor wrote: Isn't preset RCD practice to break all three phases and neutral and the test resistor circuit with the one multipole contactor ?
Oops, looks like you are right, Acmotor:

Image

But I still claim you would not want a situation where a neutral lead could be broken when the active(s) is(are) not. With the above, all leads are broken at once.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by acmotor » Thu, 06 Mar 2014, 05:41

Yes, totally agree with your point about the neutral potentially being broken in isolation or before the active...I was focussed on the RCD function.
Perhaps wording should be clarified as well.
A breaker implies an MCB or TCB (effectively a current limiting device). Neither of these are ever on a neutral AFAIK.
The neutral is only ever interrupted by a switch or contactor at the same time as the actives in the case of the typical device you posted.

Back to Marty's experience with the 20A circuit not tripping with the clipper creek charger.
My understanding is that if the trip was of an RCD then all the circuits, 10, 15, 20, 32A will trip equally. Single or 3phase.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Wed, 19 Mar 2014, 07:44

i managed to charge the volt successfully with the 10A mitsu EVSE.
Seems that the volt doesn't trip when the battery is discharged.

however the next morning when the battery is full and I unplug plug the charge coupler in, the RCD trips.

but this could just be a coincidence.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 19 Mar 2014, 10:32

g4qber wrote: i managed to charge the volt successfully with the 10A mitsu EVSE.
Seems that the volt doesn't trip when the battery is discharged.

however the next morning when the battery is full and I unplug plug the charge coupler in, the RCD trips.

but this could just be a coincidence.
that is interesting would like to see the same test done over and over for a week or two to see the results

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