A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 00:14

marty11 wrote: I buy a 20 amp outlet, get the sparky to fit it in the Car Park, then to the Sub-Board, then plug in g4qber's Clipper Creek that draws up to 16 amp into that
The sparky might be able to get the 20 A outlet from his normal supplier(s) cheaper than you can buy and ship it, even with the sparky's mark up.

I assume you want to put a 20 A plug onto the Clipper Creek unit, so that it can be removed from the 20 A socket if say our MX-5 rolled up. I think it would be fine to plug the Clipper Creek into that socket, as long as you didn't plug it in and out very frequently.

Also, if the 20 amp can handle backwards compatible , I can then get say a visiting EV , to plug in with their evse, whether it is 6 amp, 10 amp, 15 amp etc ... right up to 20 amp?
Yes, if the MX-5 were near, we could use that 20 A outlet. Any other EV that used ordinary 10/15/20 A plugs directly could also use it, but they are somewhat rare. Of course, EVs with their own "opportunity" EVSEs could also use it.

I assume the Clipper Creek unit is J1772, so most Australian EVs would be able to use that and charge more quickly. It's not clear to me if these are intended to stay together (the Clipper Creek unit and the 20 A socket). With the two, you'd cover a wide range of EVs.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 00:22

g4qber wrote: with 20A sockets, are they normally installed with a 4 pin socket?
http://www.uniquip.net.au/switched-sock ... -500v-ip66

That particular socket has no neutral, as has been pointed out. As a result, you can't get 240 V from it, only 415 V. For 240 V, you need a phase and neutral. With the 4-pin 3-phase socket, you can only get power between phases, which is 415 V. (There is 240 V from any phase to earth, but if you draw more than a few tens of milliamps of current, it will throw the RCD, and even if there was no RCD for some reason, it's a terrible idea and should never be attempted. Earths are for protection only, never to carry load current.)

In summary, the three phase outlets can only be used where there is three phase supply, so that rules out most houses. And even if you had three phase supply, you'd need the 5-pin variety of socket to be able to draw 240 V. Finally, there is a perfectly suitable single phase outlet (3 pin) that is designed for supplying up to 20 A.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Jeff Owen » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 00:35

coulomb wrote: Earths are for protection only, never to carry load current.)

What about a SWER system?

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by weber » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 01:24

Why muck around with 20A GPOs. Might as well go straight to the HPM 32A GPOs as per Bladecar's GPOs that Coulomb linked to. Backward compatible to everything else (10, 15, 20, 25A).

Here's my setup using two of them with their own dedicated 32A RCBOs. Click on the image to see it in its original context and read about the installation.

Image

Jeff, I know you're just being a smart arse, Image but even with a SWER service, from the switchboard onward, i.e. the house wiring, there are separate neutral and earth wires as usual, and so what Coulomb says is true.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Gabz » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 01:31

marty11 wrote: Larger businesses might have the money available for fast charging at multiple $thousands, but small businesses.. no... Looking for opinions.. Gabz? anyone?

all a small business needs to do is put a 15amp or 20amp power point near a car park and that's it shouldn't cost more than $500.

what you don't want to do is have to run extension cables or run cables out windows or along the ground for long distances. last thing you want is a WHS (OH&S) issue, or your public liability going up because someone tripped on a electrical cable.

don't buy your own socket. cheaper if the sparkie gets it. when I go around to my local electrical wholesaler I have to pay nearly 10-20% more than my work mate with a electrical license. (if its urgent I turn up in work uniform or high vis tell them some crap about can't put it on the account because the admin chick is on holidays etc..)

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 03:18

antiscab wrote: single phase 20A sockets have 3 wires (live, neutral, earth) and are rare as hens teeth

They may be rare to find in the wild, but there is no problem buying them.

Here is one on Ebay for under $20, excluding shipping. There are two [ edit: now 3 ] others that I found on Ebay; search for "gpo 20 amp" without the quotes.

Image

A quick search of the i-supply store didn't turn up any 25 A or 32 A single phase GPOs, however.

PS - sorry for the late reply. Telstra cable modem down in this area again. Still down - this post via an Optus "internet stick".
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 17:24

Thanks Coulomb and everyone,

Hows this one .. not a bad price for an outdoor waterproof one to stick on the external wall facing the car park?



What do you think? This one appears ok for the price to me, better than some over $120 ! (I think)

might get the one above unless someone says "dont buy that one" .

Its mainly to try out the Clipper Creek , and hopefully for visiting EV's that have their own 10/ 15/ 20 amp 3 pin plug.

20 amp single phase outlet weatherproof
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 17:57

marty11 wrote: might get the one avove unless someone says "dont buy that one" .

There seem to be two price points for power outlets these days. One is a lot cheaper than the other.

I suspect that one is a Chinese copy, even ones that say "Clipsal", and one is the real thing (also likely made in China, but to better standards).

I have a dual 10 A gpo I got from Rexel a while back, still in its packaging. It says "Clipsal" on the bag, and has a kangaroo in triangle logo on the back, but it doesn't seem like the ones that used to cost $20 years ago (and possibly like the ones that still do). [ Edit: I can't remember what it cost; it was in a bargain bin, and I think it was around $3. ]

For something that will be outdoors and used by the public, I think I'd want to use the one that seems like the real deal. I know that paying more is no guarantee of quality, but paying less sometimes does mean less quality.

Are there any sparkies, or people that have bought this sort of equipment lately, that can attest to the quality or lack thereof of the cheaper gear?
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 19:00

Yes I know what you mean.

Manufacturing for most electrical products now is made overseas, but if it's made to Australian Standards, (and that website states approved in Australia and New Zealand) I would think it should be ok.

It is also IP rated for outdoor use.

Sometimes a really expensive price is just a large mark-up too, and the prodcut is still made overseas.

I remember people bagging my chinese CEEG solar panels 4 years ago , and I had them all tested prior to installation, and just recently , 4 years on, no degradation in output at all, and no discoloration etc.

SMA inverter still going strong (German) although the sun has discoloured its LED display.

That one should be able to let any visiting EV's plug in any 10amp, 15 amp , or 20 amp 3 pin evse to charge though, soI am ok to press the buy button I think.

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by acmotor » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 20:33

Just checking guys,
The Oz RCD trip current is 30mA and is independent of the circuit current/voltage.
i.e. a 10A, 15A, 20A, 32A 230V circuit has a 30mA RCD as does a 10A, 20A,32A,64A 3 phase 380V circuit.

Am I reading that folk are thinking a 20A circuit is less likely to trip with the volt than a 10A circuit ? Not true.

A shared circuit with multiple 10A outlets is the most likely to trip only because there may be other devices on the circuit that have already resulted in some earth leakage. The 30mA is cumulative i.e. the sum of all leakages. If the circuit already has 10mA leakage ( no trip ) then the additional Volt leakage can tip the cart.

Those 20A/32A 230V outlets open a grey area, demonstrating that the wiring rules are for the fixed wiring not the appliance. i.e. a 10A plug can be inserted into any current outlet but is not current protected by the CB feeding the outlet and (edit:can) have 0.5sqmm wire to the appliance? Not the case with 3 phase connectors that are pin/cutout encoded (thought wire size can be small).

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Post by Gabz » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 20:50

CB aren't designed to protect the cable to the device or the device just the internal wall wiring. you can still have 0.5sqmm wire on a 10amp plug with a 16amp CB.

the test tag system is designed to project the device cable, right ?
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Post by g4qber » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 21:20

Marty please test at least 10x plugging in/out the charge coupler
Ie physically pulling coupler out.

The fault on my volt occurred intermittently at tuarns research facility.

I manage to get the evses to fault immediately at my house.

When the fault is intermittent it is like Russian roulette. One doesn't know if one will come back to an uncharged volt. Not that it matters too much since there is petrol backup. Just annoying.

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Post by acmotor » Thu, 02 Jan 2014, 04:59

Test and tag doesn't consider the appliance cable suitability, just insulation, physical damage and earth continuity.
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Post by marty11 » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 16:35

ok, it is true.

20 amp circuit (single phase) does not trip the rcd.

Paid for a sparky to come out and test the clipper creek.

It is charging at 16 amps (Measured) on a 20 amp circuit just fine.

Will send back the evse Clipper Creek to WA.

All works well.

In a 20 amp circuit, not a 15 amp circuit.

Recommend: You receive back the clipper creek, and install a 20 amp circuit ,as per Clipper Creeks recommendations all over their website.

The exercise was interesting, and I don't mind paying the freight back as well as the electrician to test , but won't pay for any more testing. Image

Enjoy your clipper creek, plugged into a 20 amp circuit!

Cheers.. Marty

ps.. We are installing a 20 amp circuit for the Motel I work at, just for EV's that want to charge here,as part of this process! (Maybe for canberra EV's.. 170 odd km's from this Motel - but can charge at Cooma as well.. Cooma is 100 kms from Canberra, 58 km's from Jindabyne) So a small win for EV'ers (Sorry we could not afford a huge expensive fast charger for all the newer model Leafs etc with 6.0 kw charging capabilities! )   Image
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Post by Gabz » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 17:25

marty11 wrote: ps.. We are installing a 20 amp circuit for the Motel I work at, just for EV's that want to charge here,as part of this process! (Maybe for canberra EV's.. 170 odd km's from this Motel - but can charge at Cooma as well.. Cooma is 100 kms from Canberra, 58 km's from Jindabyne) So a small win for EV'ers (Sorry we could not afford a huge expensive fast cahrger for all the Leafs etc! )   Image

Looking forward to the updated recargo / plugshare entries. I'm actually going south in a week or so in the ICE so might go have a look.

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Post by marty11 » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 17:47

Hiya Gabz ..

Yes please come and take a look!

Electrician is telling me one 20 amp circuit and one 15 amp circuit will be good, (One 15 amp for Volt etc , 20 amp for BEV's or the odd Volt with a Clipper Creek)

These two circuits are "spare " from previous Hot Water circuits, which are no longer needed as solar was installed.

Let me know when you are coming!    Image

any Canberra EV's or Cooma ones, come and charge for free.
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Post by g4qber » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 19:47

Thanks for testing Marty

Interesting how the volt is pulling 16 amps
Sounds similar to LEAF on e-station's wall box.
Somehow LEAF and volt tend to pull out of spec amps.

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Post by marty11 » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 20:22

thats ok! Thanks for letting me try it.

So when I send it back to you, will you use it?

Around your area, are their any 20 amp circuits you could use?

Would you pay like me, to put a 20 amp circuit into your sub-board at home?

My job might involve travel overseas soon, so I have already let out my house, and was happy to just pay for an ev charge outlet at the Motel I currently manage ,for the use of others.

Will be interested to see if it works ok for you in a 20 amp circuit as well.

Maybe you could let your contact at Clipper Creek know that their evse is ok in Australia, so others can buy from them with a little confidence?

Cheers.. Marty
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Post by g4qber » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 20:37

Marty are you able to test on a 15 amp socket?

Cos this is what we have in perth
Eg the chargepoint Australia 15 amp bollard at barlee st

I might ask the electrician to boost my circuit to 20 amp out of curiosity but my hunch is that there will be no difference.
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Post by marty11 » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 20:43

no sorry, cannot test on 15 amp circuit.. I do not have one! Only 10 amps and now 20amps...and I might be putting a second 20 amp one in later. (Rather than 1 x 20, and one x 15 )

I had to pay to have a 20amp circuit installed, and as it says to use a 20 amp circuit on the clipper creek web site, I sure wasn't going to pay more money for a 15 amp circuit as well, considering it isn't recommended by Clipper Creek, and as mentioned in our tests, the Clipper Creek draws 16 amps.

The main reason I had a 20 amp installed was so I could go by Clipper Creeks recommended circuit size, even though everyone says it "should " work on a 15 amp circuit, it definitely recommends a 20 amp circuit.. and as it turns out, no rcd tripping.... so long as I followed their recommendations.

Why not just put a 20 amp circuit in at home and see how you go? (Unless you know of someone over there that has a 20 amp rcd circuit? there must be someone. .otherwise "bite the Bullet" and get one.. I think thats the only way you will know if your Volt is the same as mine. .as in, its ok with the Clipper Creek provided you use the recommended 20 amp circuit.

I know what Clipper Creek will say if you question their recommendation of a 20 amp circuit.

Image Image

ps you may even have a cheaper solution than me.. someone who is a sparky and can wire it up for you, the labour here isnt cheap!
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Post by marty11 » Wed, 15 Jan 2014, 21:23

ok, the recargo site now shows two recharge points of for EV.

Anyone else feel like providing the same in their area, or know someone who might?

Jindabyne 2 charge points
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Post by g4qber » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 00:36

Image

looks like I am already on a 20A circuit.

http://www.sparkydirect.com.au/p/948283 ... 2030-.html

can a sparky please confirm this?
thanks in advance.
perhaps why my electrician didn't bother answering me, probably thought it was a silly question.

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Post by Gabz » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 02:09

g4qber wrote:
Interesting how the volt is pulling 16 amps
Sounds similar to LEAF on e-station's wall box.
Somehow LEAF and volt tend to pull out of spec amps.


Who said it's out of spec ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Signaling says a 25% duty signal means 16amps and the next step down is 10amps at 16% duty.

The other spec part is when e-station put a 15amp plug on a 40amp peak charger.

I would say that marty's sparkie fitted a 25amp+ CB to that 20amp socket so it wouldn't of cared about a 20amp spike.
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Post by g4qber » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 03:20

what I mean by "out of spec" is that the volt is supposed to draw only 15A max and yet Marty's volt is drawing 16A
my volt draws around 14-15A
http://www.holden.com.au/resources/docu ... e/Volt.pdf

similarly Brian's LEAF is supposed to draw 16A max but seems to "supercharge" at up to 18A
http://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/64/i ... ger?page=3

the imiev keeps it cool by drawing max 13-14A

Note that e-station did NOT put a 15A lead on the 32A wall box, it was sold without any leads.
I added the lead myself after testing that the volt and imiev did not draw more than 15 amps on full charge.
The reason that I upgraded to the 32A wall box is that the volt didn't negotiate a 14A charge on the 16A wall box.
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Post by Gabz » Thu, 16 Jan 2014, 03:30

just a note the wikipidia page says that the SAE currents are 15amp with 20amp instant or inrush. so considering you only have a 20amp CB it may be tripping on a 20amp inrush which would still be in spec. for a 25% duty. you might need to upgrade to a larger CB, because you a have a duel RCD/CB you don't know if it's a RCD or a CB that is tripping.

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