A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Fri, 06 Dec 2013, 22:32

my 10A holden EVSE has also NOT tripped anywhere, although original unit was replaced by Melville Holden.
Clipper Creek make the Holden EVSE

not sure whether you are game enough to try testing your volt with a 10A Nissan LEAF / Mitsu iMiEV EVSE?
as I have done.
plugged into a 15A protected RCD socket or 10A socket with a Jaycar 15A to 10A adaptor.

note that the charge coupler (CC) or microswitch on the CC needs to be connected & disconnected around 5 times for the fault to occur.

This even occurred at ac's research facility.

<edit> typo fixed, I dose a Kurt :|
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Fri, 06 Dec 2013, 23:43

g4qber wrote: my 10A holden EVSE has also NOT tripped anywhere, although original unit was replaced by Melville Holden.
Clipper Creek make the Holden EVSE

not sure whether you are game enough to try testing your volt with a 10A Nissan LEAF / Mitsu iMiEV EVSE?
as I have done.
plugged into a 15A protected RCD socket or 10A socket with a Jaycar 15A to 10A adatpor.

note that the charge coupler (CC) or microswitch on the CC needs to be connected & disconnected around 5 times for the fault to occur.

This even occurred at ac's research facility.


Well at first step, I would want to see how you went with the Clipper Creek plugged into an oversized amperage outlet, either RCD or not.

I can see from AC posts the 2 A spike, and that I think is not just your Volt, but all Volts. (Just guessing , with the knowledge that others have mentioned recommending oversized amperage outlets for the Volt) .

Your clipper Creek , runs on 16amps? COuld it be tested on a single phase 20 or 25 amp circuit?

Is it easier to "live with" the 2 amp spike, that the Volt produces, and use a larger amperage outlet, or tackle the demon head on and find a fix that can be say, adapted to the Clipper Creek?

Is it worth sending a link to clipper Creek, or posting the link on GM Volt Forum?

As you can tell, I am "technically challenged" about electics. So if the questions are a bit OT, please forgive Image

Am learning a bit, and reading some of ac's and Coulumbs posts twice Image
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Fri, 06 Dec 2013, 23:55

thought I would try and track down the post I had read about clipper creek , and issues charging Volts.

There is a post in this thread , about a guy in the US that has a dedicated 30 amp line installed, and with Clipper Creek LCS 25, still had issues.

Here is the link to the 3 page thread.. hope it helps a little

Volt and Clipper Creek faults

Cheers. .marty

ps. .I noticed in another thread that you mentioned the Volt only uses 14 amps. Volt draws 14 amps

is that while charging? so would that take the Spikes into consideration? ( If not it may push past 14 into 16amp + territory?)
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Sun, 08 Dec 2013, 16:13

I'm trying to delete my posts and consolidate info so here is a post that used to be in the LEAF section.

Nissan Leafs Trip as well and BMW Active E prototype.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... W26E#t=107

Jump to 1min 50secs

I'm glad I don't live in America.
With their GFI tripping.
And 110V power.

Looks like leafs trip also like the Holden volt.

I need to see if the imiev trips too.
Haven't bothered to check since it hasn't tripped yet.

This could be because Mitsubishi has an electrical division.
Vs Nissan and chevy who are just car companies and may not know too much about electricity ... Yet

Tripping BMW active e
http://activeemobility.blogspot.com.au/ ... e.html?m=1

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Sun, 08 Dec 2013, 17:26

yep that guy in hte ActiveE stressing out about the wedding, with all those charges ""tripping out would not be fun
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Sun, 08 Dec 2013, 20:06

AC, yesterday I had a thought,
e-station's boxes are NOT RCD protected since they are meant to be wall mounted

do you concur with this idea?

It is quite amazing how we didn't think of this sooner.
This could explain why they are compatible with the volt?

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Tue, 10 Dec 2013, 23:49

http://gm-volt.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-32929.html

more ideas on tripping.
I'll let someone decipher all that info.

thomas B and I tested the portable non-Holden EVSEs.
all work with his black volt built may 2012
mine was built in aug 2012

mine even lit up the Fault LED on the mitsu EVSE; first time i've seen this.
evseupgrade unit worked fine with volt surprisingly; but of course we know that the tripping is intermittent.
the Clipper Creek 15A was consistent with its flashing RED "Charging fault" LED.
at least my volt did not trip the wall 15A RCD, but I didn't have time to test further.

Took volt in today to Melville Holden. They claim that all software is up to date. They have a copy of Aus1 - Aussie Pete's post.
Elish in serivce said that the patch was not relevant to my volt.

currently after charging at the Subiaco Elektrobay Bollard, the Engine Fault light comes on.
to get rid of this:
connect/disconnect charge coupler 5x at a good bollard while on charge.
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 06:57

went back to Melville today.
John Jones said to contact Holden Customer Service to get authorisation from Holden to update the firmware with the US patch.

It is all to do with liability. If the techs were to install an unauthorised patch. Holden HQ will say that they didn't give the go ahead & lots of $$$ may be involved.

Once again service was towing the line that "it works with the Holden EVSE" and that is all they care about.

Lucky we have Aus1 and his SPX.
Interestingly Melville also have an SPX in the workshop
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 14:58

hmm if Melville has an spx in their workshop,

a. Have they used it on a Volt

b. Could you try it on your Volt in their workshop.

c. if Aus1 had an update applied to his Volt by an Australian Authorised Holden Volt Dealer, and his SPX now works just fine, then maybe consider an spx? But.. try and see if their SPX at Melville Holden will work without tripping.

Also find out what sized circuit (20 amp ? ) That Melville plug their spx into.

My thinking is that aus1 had the update bulletins applied, by Holden, and it fixed his chargin problem with fault codes.

You should be able to get the same updates done, as it has already proved to work in Australia, and Aus1 hasnt had any problems with his SPX.

If they do the update for you, then check with your evse and see if it is ok.

When I use a Clipper Creek to test, if mine trips the rcd on my 20 amp circuit (I wont use 15 amp, Clipper Creek recommends 20 amps for a reason) then I will ask Holden to do the Bulletin upgrades.

Cheers Marty
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Gabz » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 15:05

maybe you should stop buying american EVSE because the RCDs are setup for Line to line voltage ?

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 15:52

Interesting point gabz.
Can you explain why the evses work on
imiev leaf and another volt?

Also The 15A clipper creek unit is designed for Australia.


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Post by Gabz » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 16:09

yours could be defective not arguing that it's not but it'll be hard to prove.

as for clipper creek being designed for Australia last time i emailed them they didn't have c tick certification which means they aren't allowed to sell or disturb them in Australia so i can't see how it's designed for Australia.

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Post by g4qber » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 16:56

http://www.cloudninecars.com.au/what-we ... -solutions

It's got an aussie 15 amp plug on the end of it.

The above company sells the 10 amp unit
And said to contact clipper creek direct for the 15 amp model.


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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 18:56

oh ok, so what is the main difference between say a 240 volt setup in the US and a 240 volt setup in Australia, as far as wiring is concerned.

( I know nothing about wiring)

I thought I read a few posts on GM volt forum about people having issues with level 2 evse's, that had incorrect grounding ? and that apparently had caused Voltage drops ( cant rememberif it was drops or spikes ? )

Also noticed that Clipper Creeks latest 30 amp evse is a 40/30 meaning it requires a 40 amp circuit, for a 30 amp evse.

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Johny » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 19:12

marty11 wrote: oh ok, so what is the main difference between say a 240 volt setup in the US and a 240 volt setup in Australia, as far as wiring is concerned.
This topic appears to go around and around in circles. acmotor, coulomb and a few others have already commented on this but I'll have one more go.

The USA 240 VAC comes out of either end of a transformer secondary (the output of the transformer). The secondary is centre tapped and that is grounded (somewhere). So the two 240 VAC wires have the same potential with respect to ground as each other but they are 180 degrees out of phase - this is sometimes called balanced.
They get 120 VAC by using either end of the 240 VAC secondary and grounding the neutral somewhere (at the switchboard?) - but that's not important here.

Australian 240 VAC comes out of a transformer the same as the USA BUT there is no centre tap. In Australia the neutral side is grounded at the switchboard.

So....
In both countries, the two 240 VAC wires go through an RCD. It measures the difference in current between the two wires. If there is no path to ground then all is well - well almost...
In the USA you could apply a load from either wire to ground without tripping the RCD BUT the load would have to be the same. If you try that in Australia the RCD would trip because there would be very little current to ground from the neutral wire (if any) and a lot from the active wire because it is 240 VAC above ground.

This might be why GM Volts trip RCDs. The input EMI filter in the car probably assumes it will be fed with balanced 240 VAC and it's designed accordingly.



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Post by g4qber » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 19:20

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php ... rors/page4

mmm ... Circles ... Doughnuts (Homer Simpson voice)

I get CEL - Check Engine Light when plugging in my volt into Subiaco Bollard.

Ah well only 6 more months before I get rid of the Volt :D

I got banned from the GM-Volt forum for alleged trolling.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php ... olden-Volt

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by marty11 » Thu, 12 Dec 2013, 23:06

"So....
In both countries, the two 240 VAC wires go through an RCD. It measures the difference in current between the two wires. If there is no path to ground then all is well - well almost...
In the USA you could apply a load from either wire to ground without tripping the RCD BUT the load would have to be the same. If you try that in Australia the RCD would trip because there would be very little current to ground from the neutral wire (if any) and a lot from the active wire because it is 240 VAC above ground.

This might be why GM Volts trip RCDs. The input EMI filter in the car probably assumes it will be fed with balanced 240 VAC and it's designed accordingly."

Yes , well worded Johnny .. thanks!

The man on gm Volt forums , who lives in Melbourne, had a Bulletin Service software update down on his Volt, ostensibly to allow the Volt to be more liberal in its treatment of Level 2 Charging (Perhaps the Balance was made a more liberal tolerance.)

I found the posts on GM Volt forum , and it appears it fixed the same problem, for Aus1. His Dealer is in Melbourne.

Holden are now telling Joseph that they wont allow him to modify his Volt, so I just emailed Joseph and said its not a modification, its a GM service bulletin update via software tweak.   

As there are over 100 Volt owners, I hope that anyone with Vin numbers from production Volts affected, can get this update done without too much fuss.

To get the Volt to charge properly at Level 2 , using say a clipper Creek LC20 , shouldnt be too hard, and if it can be resolved via the software update, then surely it will benefit all other Volt owners, plus make GM aware that if they should decide to import the BEV Chevy Spark, perhaps they can be aware of the differences in how the Grounding works with regard to the different US/ Australian wiring

ps. .Been following the Hillman blog - -well done!

Link to the Melbourne Man (Martin)

Volt tripping fixed

NB Please Scroll down to 7th Post down on that page Image
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by g4qber » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 17:47

can an electrician please confirm that a 15A socket is normally connected to a 20A power feed?

Thanks in advance.

also with 20A sockets, are they normally installed with a 4 pin socket?
http://www.uniquip.net.au/switched-sock ... -500v-ip66
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by antiscab » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 18:15

4 pin sockets are 3 phase with no neutral connected (3 phase + earth)

single phase 20A sockets have 3 wires (live, neutral, earth) and are rare as hens teeth

a 15A socket is usually on its own 15A circuit (with either 15A fuse or 20A CB) (2.5mm2 wire) at a minimum, but they can be on a larger circuit with other powerpoints/devices.

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Post by marty11 » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 20:19

Hi Antiscab,

So I now have g4qbers clipper creek to test in a 20amp socket.

I have disconnected a 4.8 kw water heater, and was going to get my sparky to test my volt / his clipper creek in a 20 amp single phase socket.

So I was going to ask my sparky to wire up an external single phase socket, using the sub-board spot where the hot water system was, (right next to the car park) ... thinking I could do two things.

1. Test out his clipper creek for him in a 20 amp socket ,as it is recommended by clipper Creek to use it in a 20 amp breaker circuit.
(I think he has only tried the clipper creek in a 15 amp circuit) ( I could be wrong) The clipper creek literature points to 16 amps, not 15.

2. If I get the circuit going, maybe if other Aeva members want to swing past, would the 20amp be of any use to them for free charging? (Assuming they brought their own evse along)

ps.. I work in a small Motel, and would like to "up" the free charging for EV's here, without spending a fortune on providing the free service. (After all, at this early stage, I dont envisage a lot of use for it, but I could charge the Volt up, and maybe Canberra members might come and use the service, which at present consists of just a lead out a window, 10 amps.

Will try and find a place in Cooma (midpoint between Canberra and the Snowies) to let Canberra members charge.. so then they could go Canberra - Cooma - Jindabyne and return for a drive.

So the question is , if my sub-board is ok with a 20 amp circuit, and   I slip in a 20 amp rcd breaker, then provide a proper 20 amp single phase all weather socket, will it have a better chance testing wise, for his Clipper Creek, (using my Volt for testing) but more importantly, will the 20 amp be any use to say an Imiev or Leaf user, or a custom EV like Johnnys hillman etc, with regard to charging times.

If the answer is not much use for other EV's, I wil lm ost likely hunt around first for a single phase 20 amp outlet, but as you point out, might be to rare to find.

Cheers. .Marty
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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by Gabz » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 20:34

single phase 20amp outlets are not backwards compatible you can't just plug in a 10amp or 15amp. (i've seen sparkies use them for UPS supplies because of this to avoid people unpluging the ups)

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A closer look at the volt RCD tripping issue

Post by coulomb » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 21:02

Gabz wrote: single phase 20amp outlets are not backwards compatible you can't just plug in a 10amp or 15amp. (i've seen sparkies use them for UPS supplies because of this to avoid people unpluging the ups)

Huh? They have the larger (9 mm) blades all around, like the 15 A has for just its earth lead.
The 15 A (large earth pin), 20 A (all large pins), 25 A (large pins and large L-shaped earth pin), and 32 A (large pins with large U-shaped earth pin) are all designed to be backwards compatible.

See also BladeCar's sockets.
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Post by g4qber » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 21:07

http://www.uniquip.net.au/fixed-socket- ... -250v-ip66

aha found this 20 amp 3 blade socket
the Hen has teeth

<updated> with this link
http://www.accesscomms.com.au/reference ... riants.htm
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 21:11

See also Wikipedia's AS/NZS 3112 page:

"There is also a 20 A variant, with all three pins oversized, and 25 and 32 A variants, with the 20 A larger pins and the earthing pin forming an inverted "L" for the 25 A and a horizontal "U" for the 32 A. These sockets accept plugs of equal or of a lower current capacity, but not of higher capacity."
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Post by marty11 » Sun, 29 Dec 2013, 22:25

Wow thanks you four for your help!   

So.. can you tell me if you think this might help?

I buy a 20 amp outlet, get the sparky to fit it in the Car Park, then to the Sub-Board, then plug in g4qber's Clipper Creek that draws up to 16 amp into that (I assume its rcd'd close to that figure of 15.? amps?

Should this then work and be a great test for his Clipper Creek? (Testing on my Volt)

Also, if the 20 amp can handle backwards compatible , I can then get say a visiting EV , to plug in with their evse, whether it is 6 amp, 10 amp, 15 amp etc ... right up to 20 amp?

Am I on the right track or need a new direction?

If say an Imiev , or a Leaf, or Coulombs Mazda, Johnnys Hillman, AC's 4 wd, ....if any of those were to see this plug for use, would they think it was handy for them?

I am thinking if it was a good idea, then http://www.uniquip.net.au/fixed-socket- ... -250v-ip66 this one of g4qbers might be an expense the Motel might front up for.

Say Sparky $200, circuit breaker , Fixed socket 20 amp, round it up to about $500 depending on time taken etc., postage and handling etc.

Would be better re charging times than a 10 amp outlet, if the multi-thousand dollar charging stations are out of reach for a small business.

Larger businesses might have the money available for fast charging at multiple $thousands, but small businesses.. no... Looking for opinions.. Gabz? anyone?
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