Gaining extra range

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iDaVID
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Gaining extra range

Post by iDaVID » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:26

mikedufty wrote: Did you charge the 12V battery once, or have you been doing it every main charge?


Only the once
mikedufty wrote:Did you disconnect the battery or fiddle with the terminals when you charged it? could that have made a difference?


I didn't disconnect or fiddle.

I didn't even flirt   Image

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Gaining extra range

Post by g4qber » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:27

Does one charge the 12v battery in situ?

Will have to go out shopping for Batt charger.
I want my 100km back!
Last edited by g4qber on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by iDaVID » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:32

g4qber wrote: Does one charge the 12v battery in situ?

Will have to go out shopping for Batt charger.
I want my 100km back!


I got my 12 v charger a few year back. Can't recall from where. It was about $20 IIRC

But it'll be interesting to see whether someone else also repeats my experience or if it's a one off.




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Gaining extra range

Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:33

"Does one charge the 12v battery in situ?

Will have to go out shopping for Batt charger.
I want my 100km back!"

Why don't you just write down 200km RR on a post it note and stick it over the RR gauge.

Seriously your not going to gain your lost traction pack capacity by charging the 12v lead acid battery. It's charged every time you charge the car and every time you drive the car. This is getting silly.

Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:40

My car was parked for about 3 days and this morning it read 12.2v. took it for a 20km drive and let it sit for 2 hrs and it now reads 12.6v (obviously as its charged while your driving) Put it on charge now with a 4A charger and its not taking much charge ...As in the car did a good job of refilling it. I will let it charge until the external battery charge switches to float and recharge the Imiev to 100%.

Kurt

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:48

Ok for that test the external charger took about 2min to reach float (so the battery was 99.9% full from just driving it)

You cant charge a battery that's already being charged by the car.

All I can think of is you where parking your car then running 12v loads for long periods (leaving the interior light on or radio running) then driving the next trip with the cars traction pack providing the lost energy to the 12v battery. Then returning to charge the car and this (charge while driving energy) was summed into you RR calculations.

Then you do the same but this time charge to the car to cover the 12v load and repeat but this time the traction pack doesn't need to cover the negative 12v energy.

Not likely but all I can think of that works on paper.

Kurt

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Post by iDaVID » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:50

Well maybe I should say what happened with the events leading up to and including the 12 v charging.

The day before I was on about a 4 bars on the main battery pack. So it was charged as I usually do.

Next morning I then had trouble starting the car. As said it felt like a typical low battery routine on an ICE.

So I just charged the 12 v battery in the old fashioned way.

Once the 12 v battery was fully charged, I had suddenly had 102 kms range.

It has been consistent in triple figures since.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:53

iDaVID wrote:The day before I was on about a 4 bars on the main battery pack. So it was charged as I usually do.

Next morning I then had trouble starting the car. As said it felt like a typical low battery routine on an ICE.
A simplistic implication of the symptoms is that the iMiev isn't charging the 12V battery when it's charging the main pack. It has therefore been charging the 12V battery during driving for many weeks.
It would be very interesting the get a multimeter and measure some stuff!

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Post by Gabz » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:57

iDavids i-miev did have some non standard 12volt wiring like the revering beeping. so maybe it has one of the odb vehicle tracking data collection devices. sucking 12volt power in it. Meaning the battery does more work and more charging is required.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 20:59

I think perhaps it was just a case of the 12v battery was so stuffed that it got to the point where sitting stationary for a short time if fell on its back side. (not enough energy to boot the car up)

Once it was charged externaly perhaps the cars BMS memory was recalibrated. Like a reboot.

Though the same could happen if the cars DC DC converter wasn't doing its job. Worth checking its charging . could just be a fuse or something if it isn't.

Each way I think the reboot of BMS due to no 12v power at all for a short period is more a possibility.

Kurt

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Post by Johny » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 21:03

offgridQLD wrote:Each way I think the reboot of BMS due to no 12v power at all for a short period is more a possibility.
Kurt
OK, that last one gets my vote as most plausible.
Could David have produced a way to force a recalibrate SOC on an iMiev.

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Post by iDaVID » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 21:13

Gabz wrote: iDavids i-miev did have some non standard 12volt wiring like the revering beeping. so maybe it has one of the odb vehicle tracking data collection devices. sucking 12volt power in it. Meaning the battery does more work and more charging is required.



That could be a reason for the odd overnight power drain, even though it's only happened the once, but I wonder if that has been an overall factor as the battery seems to be holding its charge since the 12 v recharge (at least admittedly for the moment).

I'm starting to suspect that the 12 v battery is on the way out, as others have suggested, and hence why other owners of 2010 models have mentioned a similar reduction in range (other than weather temp etc).
Last edited by iDaVID on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by iDaVID » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 21:19

Rebooting could be a possible explanation, but previously whatever I got real world distance wise, oddly matched within tolerance levels (ie 1%) the guess-o-meter. Well since the "reboot" I can report a similar match.

What I'm starting to suspect is that, with these 2010 models, the 12 v battery's are reaching the end of their lives. And as a result they're draining power from the main battery pack by around 10 kms.

But we won't know this until others charge their 12 v batteries so we can compare notes. Maybe I'm a one off or just the start ;)   
Last edited by iDaVID on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 10:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 21:35

"What I'm starting to suspect is that, with these 2010 models, the 12 v battery's are reaching the end of their lives. And as a result they're draining power from the main battery pack by around 10 kms."


I don't think so.

When A 12v battery get old it just doesn't absorb any charge.

So old tired battery's wont suck anymore power from your traction pack.

If you don't want to spend $5 on a MM to measure the battery. Go to the car with the key off and turn the lights on high beam. The start the car . Do they get much brighter when the car is in (Ready) mode?

run the lights on high beam for 5 min you will soon know if the battery is stuffed as the lights will die in that time and come to life as soon as you start the car.

I agree that the 5 year old battery in the 2010 Imiev would be about stuffed. change as preventative measure.

Though I don't think the RR reduction is due to the old battery loading up the DC/DC converter as that's not how they respond when old.

Perhaps a better test for people is to take the battery leads off your car and let it sit overnight (perhaps even cycle the key ) then hook it back up again and recharge the traction pack and see if its recalibrated.

Kurt




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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 21:40

"Rebooting could be a possible explanation, but previously whatever I got real world distance wise, oddly matched within tolerance levels (ie 1%) the guess-o-meter. Well since the "reboot" I can report a similar match."

Yes because in the end what ever the BMS thinks is your logged capacity that's what you get to use. so it should match some what.

A recalibration of the BMS stored (new capacity value) would give higher readings and allow you to use it.

Though cell voltage at a particular SOC% say 10% SOC would need to be taken before hand and matched to cell voltages at the (new) 10% SOC to see if it was A unrealistic new calculated (usable capacity)

Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by iDaVID » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 21:59

offgridQLD wrote: don't think so.

When A 12v battery get old it just doesn't absorb any charge.

So old tired battery's wont suck anymore power from your traction pack.

If you don't want to spend $5 on a MM to measure the battery. Go to the car with the key off and turn the lights on high beam. The start the car . Do they get much brighter when the car is in (Ready) mode?

run the lights on high beam for 5 min you will soon know if the battery is stuffed as the lights will die in that time and come to life as soon as you start the car.

I agree that the 5 year old battery in the 2010 Imiev would be about stuffed. change as preventative measure.

Though I don't think the RR reduction is due to the old battery loading up the DC/DC converter as that's not how they respond when old.

Perhaps a better test for people is to take the battery leads off your car and let it sit overnight (perhaps even cycle the key ) then hook it back up again and recharge the traction pack and see if its recalibrated.

Kurt



The hi-beam blazed away gloriously for 6 minutes without a hint of dimming. So it isn't the 12 v battery (at least for now).

I've disconnected the battery in question and I'll leave it overnight. Then recharge the main battery as you've suggested albeit I've only done about 20 kms since the last charge.

I'll report what I find tomorrow   
Last edited by iDaVID on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 11:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 22:06

Sounds like the 12v battery isn't totally stuffed. Though did it get significantly brighter when you started the car?

I wasn't suggesting that you disconnect your battery as you have already done this (effectively anyhow by having a completely flat battery event)

I was suggesting it as something for others to try if that will reboot the BMS.

Kurt

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 22:08

I havn't ever disconnected my 12v battery as I recall reading that it will throw a code that you need to reset if you do so.

I was planning on having a small change over battery piggybacked onto the battery terminals if I ever had to swap out the battery.

Perhaps you can hook the leads up again and confirm this? Do you have a warning light on now?

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 09 Nov 2015, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mikedufty » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 06:47

Mine had a flat battery in the car yard when I bought it. I suspect it had been flat for some time, and I'm pretty sure they replaced the battery before delivery. Had typically 80km RR for the first few weeks, now around 90 - 100 most of the time, I suspect mainly due to the novelty of the electric accelleration wearing off.
So flattening, replacing and charging the battery does not seem to have increased effective range in this case, although I don't know what it was reporting prior to the flat.

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Post by mikedufty » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 06:48

I don't recall it having errors after "jump starting" for the test drive.

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Post by iDaVID » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 13:53

So the result of the overnight battery disconnect and this morning's charge is an increase of 1km. The meter now reads 110 (see photo).

I'm now charging the 12 v battery again to see if there's any effect.

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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 14:24

Good to see no fault codes from extended battery disconnection. I don't need to be so pedantic with piggy back battery's now if I want to remove the 12v battery.

Part of me is saying that what the RR meter reads doesn't matter though the other part is saying well in some ways is might mater.

Given that the cars BMS has a evolving capacity that it determines through (not so clear criteria) Anyhow if it gets it wrong. Lets say underestimates the true capacity by 10% then there isn't much you can do about it. The BMS calls the shots. You just have to hope it gets it correct.

So in some small way if the RR meter is consistently showing less than you would expect then there is a (chance)that the BMS has underestimated the new capacity but there is a good chance it has it spot on to. You would sure know if it over estimates the pack capacity. As you would get a surprise turtle earlier than you expected. This has happened to some and then the behavior has corrected it's self.

All interesting I wish I knew more about how our cars BMS and rolling (new capacity) data worked.

For now we can just poke around from the outside and try and observe things through Canion and discover things by having fun trying silly things and sharing the results, good or bad.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 03:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by iDaVID » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 14:26

So the 12 v battery this morning was pretty much at max.

There's been no charge to the range as it still reads 110kms

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Post by iDaVID » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 21:14

After a 70 km trip today, involving 10 kms @ 110 kph, the GOM pretty much matched the distance travelled once the usage of the air con was taken into account.

After a recharge this afternoon the GOM is now showing 106 kms (see photo).

I've probably done as much as I can do at this stage, so if someone else can please charge their 12 v battery and report their findings we can start to compare and contrast   


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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 10 Nov 2015, 21:39

I did the test yesterday and charged my battery. It charged for about 1 min until it was full. As the Imiev already charges the 12v battery both when your driving and when it's main battery is being charged.

So I'm not sure what your asking fellow imiev owners to do. Charge a battery that's already charged?

If for some reason your own personal imiev had a flat 12v battery or at least one that could take a significant charge then your imiev is not working as intended (not charging it's own 12v bat) or you have some kind of 12v idle load that's draining the battery when the car is stationary and not on charge.

Kurt


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