Malm, 2011 i-MiEV, Portugal

Post by **me68** » Sat, 04 Apr 2015, 09:49

Hello Malm!

Could you please show us a screenshot from Panel Trip Timer from this trip to see Wh Out & Wh reg also?

Martin

Post by **Malm** » Sat, 04 Apr 2015, 10:26

Canion stop working in the middle of the journey. All that values turned 0. What I know is that when charging, around 50% SoC, 1% SoC is equal to 108 Wh, seen by Canion. This is lower then when it was new.

Happy to know that it charges to 100% with 361 total voltage and cells at 4,105/4,100V, happy to know that turtle is from 9,5% to 0,0%, with the worst cell above 3,3 V (In the past I went to 2,75 V). With this test, when turtle appears, I know that this don´t mean stooping immediately.

Post by **Malm** » Sun, 05 Apr 2015, 07:44

From 100% to 34%: 8,503 Wh out and 902 Wh reg = 7,601 Wh

142Wh/km - Distance 53,4 km - Wh used 142*53,4 = 7,583 Wh (Ok, that 142 should be 142,34 Wh/km).

So if 66% is 7,6, 100% should be 11,5 KWh. I think this is the number (seen by Canion), my i-MiEV "think" the battery has 11,5 KWh when is full charged. As I showed, It goes from 100% to 0,0%, with something like 3,3V in the weakest cell, so I think is getting the capacity right.

Post by **me68** » Sun, 05 Apr 2015, 07:52

Hello Malm!

Last year i have done this:

So i used 15.328Wh - 760Wh = 14.568Wh (98% DoD) ... 100%DoD should be then 14.865Wh real useable capacity.

I'll repeat this trip this year.

Martin

Post by **Malm** » Sun, 05 Apr 2015, 08:05

11,5/14,865=0,77. The capacity of my car today is 23% less then yours last year.

Post by **me68** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 13:14

Hello!

Last year i did a trip around Neusiedlersee, Burgenland, Austria - see one caniOn screenshot above.

To get a feeling for battery degration, i did this trip today again. Battery temperature was today a little bit higher as last year (2014: 19,1°C -> 21,3°C, 2015: 23,4°C -> 25,8°C).

I discharged the battery from 100% to 2% Soc on this trip. This means 15.325Wh - 737Wh = 14.588Wh (98% DoD). So the useable battery capacity (100% DoD) is 14.885Wh. Last year this value was 14.865Wh.

So i can't talk about appreciable battery degration 20.000km later. Unknow to me is the impact of battery temperature: the battery was round 4°C warmer as last year.

caniOn ScreenShots:

Martin

Post by **offgridQLD** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 13:53

Nice data thanks for sharing.

145km trip on a several year old Imiev with close to 60,000km on the clock is reassuring

100wh-km is a very common consumption number for me to on long trips . I seem to always get that number when I drive carefully.

Kurt

Post by **Greg partridge** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 15:32

I can only dream of getting 145kms from a charge. My Imiev is now down to low 70'skms fully charged with accessories off and driving carefully

Post by **offgridQLD** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 15:40

Is 70km range what you are actualy getting if you drive the car all the way to when the turtle comes on ? Or just what that guessing RR gauge is showing.

You realy need to compare apple with apple. You need a trip where you record 100whr / km and take the battery down to 2% to have a comparison.

I have completed several trips of around 100km at similar speeds and around 100whr/lm with 40% SOC showing on the SOC. So I assume I would have a similar max range in similar conditions.

Though I never push my cars SOC so low. Typicaly 20% SOC in my minimum . I like to consider my range as 100km and this gives plenty of safety reserve and doesn't stress the battery to much.

Kurt

Post by **acmotor** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 17:35

Martin, nice set of data.
It would be good to complete the picture and log the recharge as well.
Both the canion data and a total kWh recorded from the power point would be useful.

My best run was 129km with 2bars left on energy meter.
It will be interesting to see mitsi' response to the range that some iMiEV owners are down to.

Edit: spelling

Post by **g4qber** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 20:55

Cell 17 is lowest for me

Post by **me68** » Fri, 24 Apr 2015, 22:26

Recharging tooks 17.500Wh, measured via dedicated Ferraris-counter. So with 14.588Wh used, i have 20% loose at charging or 83% efficiency for the whole batterysystem with charging-unit.

Regarding battery degration: it seems to me, that Mitsubishi follows the strategy to give us always the same battery capacity. You see this at the cell voltages at 2% SoC:

2014: 3,395V weakest cell, 3,505V strongest cell, average 3,457V.
2015: 3,235V weakest cell, 3,470V strongest cell, average 3,381V.

Difference weakest cell (#57): 160mV
Difference strongest cell (#48): 35mV
Difference average: 76mV

So the weakest cell is stressed mostly and degraded fastest. The batterysystem is as good as the weakest cell in this configuration with all cells in serial.

Martin

Post by **acmotor** » Sat, 25 Apr 2015, 01:16

17.5kWh ! well there is a difference.
I have never been able to put more than 16.5kWh from wall in on 10A charge at new and now it is more like 14.8 to 15kWh (wall + remaining charge).

Your 14.588 is still according to canion out.
Have you logged recharge in on canion as well ?

I understand your logic on cell voltages but I think some owners are beyond dipping deeper in cell voltage to maintain apparent battery capacity.

Post by **me68** » Sun, 26 Apr 2015, 10:31

If you look to my recording at http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/532466.html you see my normal driving style. Most km are commuting 20km to the office and 20km back to home on country roads. These values are measured from wall. So the allover average from battery is 14.588Wh/17.500Wh*15,1kWh/100km = 12,6kWh/100km.

I also do not go down to 2% SoC. In summer i recharge the battery every second weekday, if i need the car only for commuting. So i use round 10kWh from the battery before recharging. This means round 12kWh from wall, every second day.

I have recorded recharging via caniOn once last year, but i have not found the screenshot from panel Trip Timer anymore.

Martin

Post by **g4qber** » Sun, 28 Jun 2015, 07:19

has anyone managed to get mitsubishi to replace a single or series of cells?

Post by **reecho** » Sun, 28 Jun 2015, 18:24

MMAU will not do cell level swap under warranty. That's the rule from Mitsubishi Japan head office.

For Leaf owners here it will be the same, as no Gen 1 packs or cells exist for warranty work. Any warranty claim in AU for a Leaf will likely end up with a lizard battery pack installed...

Post by **coulomb** » Mon, 29 Jun 2015, 04:57

reecho wrote: Any warranty claim in AU for a Leaf will likely end up with a lizard battery pack installed...

Pardon my ignorance; what's a lizard battery pack?

Post by **reecho** » Mon, 29 Jun 2015, 05:48

coulomb wrote:
reecho wrote: Any warranty claim in AU for a Leaf will likely end up with a lizard battery pack installed...
Pardon my ignorance; what's a lizard battery pack?

It's a nickname for the updated Leaf battery that has higher heat tolerance, and a rumoured change in chemistry.

Post by **acmotor** » Mon, 29 Jun 2015, 05:53

Isn't it called lizard 'coz it works better in hot weather.

Post by **Malm** » Sat, 11 Jul 2015, 04:21

No, only the entire pack. Nissan Leaf with that new pack are getting slower rates of battery degradation, here in Portugal.

Post by **Malm** » Sat, 25 Jul 2015, 14:03

Today was the day of the annual check. I was interested to get the current battery capacity, and they found it to me: 35,0 Ah.
(24/7/2015 - 81748 km - 35,0 Ah).

The last measurement was 6/3/2014 - 61821 km - 36,4 Ah. So, now that I'm keeping my batteries cold, loss of capacity is approximately 2% an year. I feel like moved to Canada or Norway.

Post by **coulomb** » Sat, 25 Jul 2015, 16:59

Malm wrote: ... the current battery capacity, and they found it to me: 35,0 Ah.

Wow. Isn't it nominally 16 kWh and 330 V, so 16,0000 Wh / 330 V ~= 48 Ah? So then it's less than 75% of nominal. Doesn't the battery warranty kick in before that? Perhaps I'm thinking Leaf or some other vehicle.

Post by **acmotor** » Sat, 25 Jul 2015, 19:49

Thinking out loud....
The cells were nominally 50Ah at new and the voltage during discharge is an almost linear ramp from 4.105V down as they discharge, around 3.6V at 10% SOC. average around 3.85V. This suggests 50 x 88 x 3.85 = 16.94kWh
This should have taken the imiev the 160km stated in the sales literature.

So the '16kWh' nominal stated battery pack capacity was perhaps 16k/3.85 ~ 42Ah
However most imiev owners only see around 16.5kWh from the wall on recharge at new (Kurt has seen 17.5?)
With charger around 80% eff. This means the new battery capacity (accessible) at new was around 13.5kWh
This suggests 13.5k / 3.85 / 88 = 39.84Ah

Now if Malm is told he has 35Ah of 39.84Ah that is 87% capacity remaining.... Perhaps ?

The question is, for Malm's imiev. What was the NEW Ah capacity ?
Perhaps the new battery capacity is the item in question ?
It was never 16kWh I would suggest. If it was then folk would have been charging 20kWh from the wall.

Post by **offgridQLD** » Sat, 25 Jul 2015, 20:23

I don't think it was me that said 17.5kwh(sound a bit high) I agree with your thinking Acmotor.

My thinking is time will be the factor that dissolves capacity with most EV'S as they sit stationary for 95% of there life the temperature they experience for that 95% of there life will play a big role.

Think about it a 2010 imiev (battery were most likely formed in 2009)making them 6 years old allready and you see them for sale with sub 30,000km on them.

I'm seeing about a 2 to 5% decrease in SOC on my regular 105km trip after two years and 250 logged trips.
Will see if it all comes back in summer time like it did last year.

How many km do you have now AC motor?
What's your estimation on capacity loss with your car (as a %)

Kurt

Post by **acmotor** » Sat, 25 Jul 2015, 22:16

My recharging kWh is 8% less on a warm day 30 deg and 12% less on a cold day 10 deg at 78,549km.
This is based on 16.5kWh that I would charge when new.

Kurt, I though I saw a post from you where you had put 17.5 kWh in from the wall ? I did question it at the time.
Maybe just a typo or a reado