Imiev measured data

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offgridQLD
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Imiev measured data

Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 04:02

Just thinking when night driving how many whrs would be consumed over a 2hr period than day time driving.

My guess

headlamps low beam 50w x2 = 100w
parking lights 10w x 4 = 40w
number plate light = 6w
interior dash lights combined 10w

156whrs x 2 312whrs? (this also assumes the DC/DC converter is 100% efficiency to and its wouldn't be. Particularly when it's feeding a flooded lead acid battery as a buffer / capacitor.

That's 3km+ of driving.

I was just thinking as in winter its dark when I do my trip but in summer I only need the lights for the last few km if at all. Also In summer I don't need the fan on low blowing fresh air onto the windscreen to keep it clear. winter this is a must. Perhaps another 40whrs for that over the 2 hrs.

(going to measure it tomorrow)

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 25 Jul 2014, 18:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by adelaide-ev » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 07:56

offgridQLD wrote:

I was just thinking as in winter its dark when I do my trip but in summer I only need the lights for the last few km if at all. Also In summer I don't need the fan on low blowing fresh air onto the windscreen to keep it clear. winter this is a must.

(going to measure it tomorrow)

Kurt

Ha, Ha - just the opposite here -always have the fan on in summer and intermittent air con, however in winter nothing - passengers are becoming accustomed to being handed a beanie and knee rug! (I ignore the eye rolling). Instead of the fan I have the window down just a smidge to keep condensation at bay.(Wind drag vs low fan calcs?)

However, I too have pondered the extra use of lights (5pm instead of as late as 8pm) reducing range as well as the cold. Range clearly only 105km to 2 bars now compared to 120+ in summer with above accessories on. Mix of suburban and B road driving.

Kurt< I wonder if you have ever logged a whole trip in B mode compared to D? Could it be significant?
I only drive in B as I prefer the "manual" feel and control - although tried C tonite as had to coast my way home after finding the public charger I planned to use was already taken.
Last edited by adelaide-ev on Fri, 25 Jul 2014, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 15:17

Adelaide-ev,
            The only time I am strict on my consumption is that once a week trip (up) to the hinterland as it's a big ask from the car. It's over 80km distance just to get to the base of the hills then a 5km long 550m high climb and then another 15km trip through the hills with several 100m steep climbs along that way. I think most people in a similar EV would think Brisbane to Maleny is a good run but pushing that extra 15km beyond Maleny is a challenge without the extra 15km!

Fortunately I always do the trip Up in the late afternoon/evening so even in summer AC isn't needed as it's cooled down by then and often lights are not needed if I get going early enough. I just like to come as close to my self imposed rule of 20% SOC as I can.

All other trips (including this one on the way home) I couldn't give a dam about conservative driving. I use the heater all the time some times heater and AC at the same time. Along with the heated seat, rear demister and lots of spirited driving. As you probable all ready know any trip under 80km you can more or less run what ever you like and drive how ever you want. It's only when you start pushing trips over 100km and big hills thrown in that you need to be careful.(particularly in winter when I feel you loose a few % range due to lower temps)

Fortunately this trip up wont be necessary for much longer.

The latest version of Canion has Air conditioning logging and the AC doesn't use much power it's very efficient (I will log some numbers over 1hr and post them up when I get time) Unless your pushing the absolute limits of range just use the AC and be happy.

The heated seat only uses about 70w or so. You can get light jackets on ebay that have a little lithium battery in them and they keep you warm like a electric blanket for several hrs. Charge them up again like a mobile phone. About $100 was the best I could find. Others have used a heated seat cover that plugs into the lighter socket. Similar consumption to the factory heated seat.

I will try and get a clamp meter on the fan wire today and measure consumption. I did have a little blade fuse with build in amp meter. That makes measuring car accessory loads easy, just finding it in the shed is the issueImage

Sun is out and pumping the kwhs back into the Imiev Image

Kurt

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Post by reecho » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 15:37

I have just swapped out my interior lights out for LED ones. They look fab and consume a fair bit less power. Now onto the centre stop and licence plate lights..

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Post by g4qber » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 16:18

past three charges, imiev has been reporting 100% SoC.
but we have the new ver 1.23

the weather is getting warmer a bit in Perth.

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Post by acmotor » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 17:09

15.8 vs 16.5kWh suggests maybe 4 to 5% reduction in capacity. Less than the 10% prediction by canion method ?
This is similar to my situation.
These trends are small and I think need to be considered over 12month cycles.

Regards driving in B.... It may be providing more regen but, in my driving style at least, it consistently produces higher energy consumption as the accelerator becomes too twitchy and regen occurs too easily, only to be replaced by power out again.
Keep in mind that for best EV driving, you should never use brakes or regen. We all know that you only get back part of the energy expended so continuous on/off power is not economical.
On the other hand, I find C mode too mushy and my foot needs to visit the brake pedal too often.
So I drive in D Image
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Post by antiscab » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 17:27

reecho wrote: I have just swapped out my interior lights out for LED ones. They look fab and consume a fair bit less power. Now onto the centre stop and licence plate lights..


swap out your headlights too

a pair of 25W H4 Cree LED replacements are only $90, and they're brighter than the stock 50W halogens too
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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 00:18

We all have are different ways and I think that is good as we cover all bases.

For me when I work out capacity from the wall plug it's never that consistent. Taking kwh consumed from the wall then + the % SOC that I charged up from to get a total.In Malms example 0.2kwh variation is a lot (I get even more variation) so like you say you would need to do a lot of logs and look for a trends pattens.

My thinking is the BMS on our Imiev has full control of our car and there isn't much we can do about that. It tells the charger when the cells are full and it tells the car when they are empty. When to go to turtle mode and when to shut the car down all together.

The BMS is king and what ever He thinks the SOC, capacity, cell temp or what ever for the battery is is what He makes his decisions on.

Is he always correct? Perhaps not. Though you have no choice you have to listen to him as he has control of your car.

So if your Imiev's BMS thinks your battery's capacity is 10kwh then there isn't much you can do about it. It's only going to let you use the battery as a 10kwh battery. Mitsubishi would have put a lot of effort into making it as good as they can and I think its doing a good job all things considered as SOC meters are tricky buggers to do well.

So considering Canion is getting it's data from the car its self then I like to see this data as its more than likely the same data the MBS is using to make it's decisions.

In the end when I charge my Imiev to 100% then take off down the road and discharge it when it hits turtle that's the usable capacity.

When the time comes that I hit the turtle on my trip up the coast and I'm using the same ( kwh out) as I have in the past then I will know I have lost capacity. (or at least the BMS thinks I have )

Kurt





Last edited by offgridQLD on Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by reecho » Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 03:13

antiscab wrote:
reecho wrote: I have just swapped out my interior lights out for LED ones. They look fab and consume a fair bit less power. Now onto the centre stop and licence plate lights..


swap out your headlights too

a pair of 25W H4 Cree LED replacements are only $90, and they're brighter than the stock 50W halogens too


Aah no I have a 2010.....have the LED headlights from factory....and they are superb....

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Post by g4qber » Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 13:15

And that is why the 2010 cost 60k originally
They put everything almost into it

A) smart key
B) sat nav
C) scuff sills
D) auto up/down windows
E) led headlamps
F) better looking wheels
G) car alarm
H) smooth steering wheel
I) reverse beep inside car
J) direct 13 amp to wall charging
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Post by reecho » Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 18:53

Interesting yesterday I charged at the PTA Centre and was only getting 6A charging according to Canion.

Now i'm wondering if the Elecktrobay bollards default to 6A with 2010's with no J1772.

g4qber, Have you had 10A charging at PTA Centre before?


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Post by g4qber » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 01:00

If it is showing -6.x amps on canion
I believe that this is Normal

Right now I'm getting -6.8 to -7.0 on my circontrol box.
after racing round the track at RAC DTEC.

At subiaco REV bollard I get -6.8A in canion.

what does your canion say when you charge at home?

my 15A power meter shows around 13A
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Post by reecho » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 01:06

aaahh of course .......silly me.

Its the DC charge not the AC current....!!

*facepalm*

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Post by Conklinc » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 01:54

You Techo's have got me all confused! My '12 user's manual sez that the stop and tail lights are LED's and the rest of the lights are bulb lights, I assume 12v incandescent. If one can replace the headlights (low and high beams separate?) and other lights, can someone give the rest of us the LED light model info? I have to believe that LED headlights, while expensive, would still be a good envestment . . . more power to listen to music with and longer?

Regards,

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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 02:16

Data for Acmotor, 14.38kwh (wall plug to car)+ 16% = 16.680kwh

Image

Data for AdelaideEV, Cabin fan on lowest speed = 35w (So running the fan for 1hr = 300m driving the car)

Data for me power consumption of the lights.

The cars DC/DC converter holds the lead acid battery at a rock steady 14.325v. So all amp readings from the true RMS meter are multiplied my 14.325 for watts.

Image

System on loads on the battery are 2.65A So all reading for lights are After deducting 2.65A from the readings.

Image


Parking lights, 4.53A - 2.65A = 1.88A x 14.325 = 26.9w

Low beam + parking, 14.30A - 2.65A = 11.65 x 14.325 = 166w

High/low beam + parking, 25.15A - 2.65A = 22.5A x 14.325 = 322W


So running low beam for 1hr (166whrs) is roughly 1.5km of driving or for my 2hr trip (332whr) its roughly 3km difference lights on vs day driving. Or roughly 2% SOC at the end of the trip.

Just out of interest the coolant pump runs from the 12v (battery) so i got a measurement for that while it cycled.

Coolant pump, 7.34A - 2.65A = 4.69A x 14.325 = 67w

Kurt





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Post by reecho » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 03:28

External Lighting details...for 2011/2012 models...

Image

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 01:10

Nice data feast guys !
Yes, the hi / lo beam at 322W is quite noticeable as I used it 60% of the time at night.
It has occurred to some to charge the 12V battery off a separate battery pack and not the main pack DC-DC for a small night time range increase. What a shame the DC-DC was not bi-directional and you could squeeze a little back via that path. Image

Re temperatures...
Those cell top temperature sensors just do a good job of the BMS temperature measurement. The actual cell temperatures are less than the coldest measurement during charging ? The sensors are only accurate after maybe an hour of rest ?
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 01:56

"
Re temperatures...
Those cell top temperature sensors just do a good job of the BMS temperature measurement. The actual cell temperatures are less than the coldest measurement during charging ? The sensors are only accurate after maybe an hour of rest ? "

Interesting,
            so let me see if I am following this correctly. Your saying if the cell top probe is reading 20C and you have just finished charging. Lets say its 10C ambient air temp. Your saying the true core cell temp wold be say 12C and it would take some time with the car at rest for the cell temperature to equalize over the full depth from center to outer case (where the cell top probe takes its measurement) though wouldn't the temp come up on the cell core when you charge so the cell top probe would be showing a lower temp? Or do you think the cell top PCB is giving off heat due to the fact it has a balance shunt on it?

I agree the probe on the cell top BMS can only measure the the PCB temp at that location. There is a lot of thermal mass to 16kwh of lithium and just like a large electric motor the case temp doesn't always reflect the core temps (usually the case gets hotter after sitting for some time and the heat soaks through)

I haven't seen temps below 17C for my cells (on canion) even first thing in the morning when its 3C outside and probably 5c in the garage.

Most times when driving even when it's cold 5C or so The cells are in the low 20 in a few min and mid to high 20s after a 1hr drive. Wouldn't the thermal mass of the cells make it take a long time for them to reach ambient temp what ever that happens to be.

I know my 63kwh of lead acid on my house takes a long long time to change temp even when its very cold out side it takes several days for the temp to drop and even then it's only a few deg C. 21.4c just now(8pm)and its 11c outside.Measuring the case wedged between two cells.


Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 29 Jul 2014, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 04:33

Well.... I can discharge the pack in less than an hour with less temperature rise and more even temperatures than if I charge it for 5 hours at 3.3kW according to the temp sensors. That suggests that the BMS and it's temperature sensors have more to play with the recharge side.
The temperature sensors suggest considerable temperature variation across the cells, maybe 25deg and yes, given cell thermal mass etc, I wonder if the cell temperatures are really that spread.
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 12:03

My last discharge log 105km trip with the last chunk of capacity consumed fast (climbing into the hills) the temp variation is only 3 deg C from low cell to high 22C - 25C.

25C variation after recharging! Perhaps a balancing shunt working hard and throwing off heat? 25c variation sounds like a lot to me.

I will pay some attention to temps under recharge and see what I get. I don't often monitor with canion while charging. Usually just at the end to confirm 100% SOC was reached.



Kurt

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Post by Malm » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 14:47

Now, you should see 2 to 3 ºC up in temperatures, on a 70% charge.
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Post by g4qber » Sat, 02 Aug 2014, 18:25

I got 96.5% SoC on full charge again yesterday.
possibly due to to the Cold Weather 5 deg C.

scantools mx has not faulted yet.
at least 10 trips

99.5% now
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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 02 Aug 2014, 21:48

I think the cold could well be why you see less than 100%.

When charging a cold cell. The voltage shoots up sooner than it would at higher temps. You reach the knee earlier and hold less capacity. I am surprised the battery's do as well as they do in cold with only a few % variation.

Just filling my Imiev now and will post another log and recharge from this weeks trip.

Kurt




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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 05 Aug 2014, 01:36

This weeks trip data

Same 104km trip again, kwh from wall to recharge 14.34kwh + 16.5% = 16.700kwh

Last week was very similar 14.38kwh from wall and arrived with 16% (though started at 99.5% SOC so + .5% = 16.5%. = 16.752kwh

16.700kwh vs 16.752kwh only 52whr difference between the two weeks trip. Not bad consistency for over 100km distance trip.

Although I do keep all the Canion trip data for my own use (unless others ask for it ) I will continue to just post basic whr from wall + SOC % from Canion for a total kwh.

Will see how consistent it is.

Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 04 Aug 2014, 15:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by g4qber » Tue, 05 Aug 2014, 01:39

Kurt
are you getting 100% SoC?
Reecho is gets 96.5% sometimes and he has only done 25k kms I believe.

Ignorance is bliss.
imiev still shows 16/16 bars even when canion shows 96.5% SoC.
but the proof is in the pudding. 1st bar drops off at 4-5 kms :|

I wonder what the indication is when the 12VDC battery is about to die?
Eddie / Simon's 2010 imiev has had its 12VDC battery replaced.
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