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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 14 Jun 2015, 01:58

Today I configured 16 x 40ah calb cells into a 40ah - 48v bank. I had the PIP4048 connected up and used its built in 30A AC/DC charger to charge the bank up to roughly 3.5v pr cell. I then plugged the Imiev EVSE into the PIP4048   and drained the pack.

To monitor things I had a AC KWH meter on the AC output of the PIP and I took note of the SOC % of the Imiev (via Canion) 65% SOC to start with. I had the LVD on the PIP set at 46v or 2.87v pr cell under a 1C (45A) load. I had one MM measuring the weakest cell voltage and another meter on the total pack voltage. As I didn't have the BMS connected so I watched over it as it discharged.

The LVD on the PIP pulled the pin after recharging the Imiev enough to gain 10% SOC or roughly 1.6kwh (I lost the kwh data on the AC KWH meter as it was reset when the inverter shut down (last time I noticed it was showing 1.8kwh)

So this little Ejerry can will come in handy on my 105km trip to the hinterland in the middle of winter as I notice a few % loss over the cooler months so some times arrive a bit below 20% SOC (always above this in Summer) Arriving with 28% SOC VS 18% sounds good to me. It gives me about 16km of driving with my typical 100whr km I see. I could bring the 2nd 48v pack for 32km range extension. Though I think the one is just what I need.

I need to install the BMS on the pack (more so for cell level LVD) build a box with some tie down points.It's only 20kg + the inverter from memory the inverter is about 12kg.

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Last edited by offgridQLD on Sat, 13 Jun 2015, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Sun, 14 Jun 2015, 02:53

Good to see another ejerrycan !
Similar performance to mine, just Kurt's is at 48V rather than 12V.
One plus with the 12V version is the BMS isn't actually required as the 10.5V shutdown on the inverter protects cells from undervoltage.
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 14 Jun 2015, 03:12

So the PIP behaved itself this time? It's a little disturbing that about the only load that the PIP doesn't seem to like is the very one you want to use it for, the Mitsubishi EVSE.

Ah, but perhaps the instability happens only when the SOC is much lower than 65%? My memory is hazy on this point.

[ Edit: here is the "going crazy" post: viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p56313

It doesn't seem to indicate a dependence on SOC, at least on that page. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 13 Jun 2015, 17:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 14 Jun 2015, 03:13

Yes thanks for the Idea Acmotor. The PIP's LVD can be set to what ever voltage you like. Edit: (I think there is a upper and lower limit on it) Though 16 cells has more scope to hide high/low V differences.The cells came with the BMS so I my as well use it.

Another option with the PIP in conjunction with the Open EVSE is solar charging. Use the 2kw bank as a buffer (for when clouds pass over) and set the open EVSE to its lowest setting with a 2 or 3 200w panels ...eventually you would fill the car 100%.

I had to weld some aluminium hinges on another project I am working on so I used the PIP and Ejerrycan to run my 200A AC/DC tig welder just for kicks. It Worked fine. It could come in handy for mobile repair jobs. As the KWH demands are not high just as long as you can supply the peek loads. I might even bring my espresso machine next time I go camping Image

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Last edited by offgridQLD on Sat, 13 Jun 2015, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 14 Jun 2015, 03:29

"instability happens only when the SOC is much lower than 65%? My memory is hazy on this point."

Yes spot on. The instability is only when the Imiev on board charger is soft starting when first turned on or tapering off the charge load near 100% SOC. The issue happened more so in the tapering off stage than soft starting stage.

Again its not all the time and started fine this time (obviously I didn't have the reserve KWH's in the Ejerrycan to fully charge the Imiev when starting at 65% SOC. So I didn't see the ramp down near 100% SOC)

I will most likely use it in the Landsborough train station car park. As I kill 50 min or so while my wife turns up on the train from the city. So I usually have 48 - 50% SOC at this point in the trip. As long as it soft starts ok it will be fine.

Any time it gets down below 15C temps at night is when I notice the few % loss in range so the next two months it will be handy to ensure I don't dip below the 20% SOC rule.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 16:49

Ejerrycan experience.

25Kg for the 16x40ah calb cells and associated hardware. 15kg for the PIP4048 and associated hardware.40kg total additional weight.

Arrived in landsborough carrying the three of us and the Ejerrycan with 41.5% SOC.

On average I typically arrive in landsborugh with 48-50% SOC. Weather, weight, traffic dependent. I go on to arrive at the hinterland house with 19 - 21% SOC.

As you can see my margin to keep within the 20% SOC rule on this trip is slim (even when the car was new) Things usually got tight mid winter each year. Particularly on a clear night drive in cold 10C-12C (i would guess it was that temp as it got down to 7C that night). My thinking was as the car aged and each new winter arrived. I would asses if the drive was still practical / achievable (More than likely this trip wont be necessary often soon. as we will move to the sunshine cost permanently soon. (Perhaps by the end of this year)

So back to the Ejerrycan. As mentioned we arrived in landsborough with around 6.5% SOC less than normal. I think part of the 6.5% was just the extra weight of the Ejerrycan it's self (Im going to make up some numbers now) lets say 2% of that was because it was just a bad run. We got every single red light (so had to get the weight back up to speed lots of times) and it was very cold about 10 or 12C so 2.5% for that. The cars several years old now so I guess perhaps 1.5% loss of capacity wouldn't be out of the question. All small % that I'm dealing with but when your cutting things so fine and have driven the same trip several hundred times with a lot of attention to consistency. I notice every single % change.

So with the battery at 41.5% SOC. I pulled into the capark across the road from the shops. Popped the hatch up. Plugged in the 10A EVSE and switched the PIP on. closing the hatch 90% of the way down with the pips fans facing the small gap. My wife and daughter went across the road to get some take away. I stayed in the car with Canion running on my tablet. The SOS started to come up and the PIP running in the back took the edge off the 12C temps (not that it runs hot at just 2200w) By the time my wife and daughter got back with the take away Canion was showing 48% SOC. By the time they got in and put there seat belts on and told me what they had purchased for tea. We were at 50% SOC . I had the PIP's LVD set at 48V (under load) When the Imiev hit 51.5% SOC It was very close to hitting the LVD on the PIP but I just switched it off so we could get going. We arrived at the house with 21% SOC Image

The Ejerrycan adds 10% SOC to the Imiev.

Lugging the extra 40kg up the range most likely took a little off the end result but I'm happy it didn't really inconvenience us at all as we only wanted that little boost to overcome the 6.5% we were missing and the little EJerrycan gave us that in a short period of time and we can stick to our 20% min SOC rule.

Disregard all the foam It was just thrown in the back to stop anything from rubbing or damaging the interior. We did get some funny looks and pointing from some kids who where trying to work out what this car was doing charging its self Image
Image


I pluged 3 spare 200w solar panels I had laying around into the pip and lent them on the side of the shed facing roughly north on Saturday morning and they filled the small pack up again. (Just to avoid the multiple efficiency losses of charging batterys though multiple component conversions) I like how the PIP being a all in one unit with AC charger, solar charger and inverter is very versatile.

This got me thinking. If you had enough time on your hands and a stack of light weight flexible solar panels (about 15 x 180W flex panels) that could easily go on the roof rack in a small stack. You could drive around Australia.Image The small battery just has to act as a buffer when clouds come over.

Next time we have a EV display I might bring say 6 x 200W traditional panels on the roof racks and fabricate a camping style tilt prop for each panel that uses tent pegs and light aluminum prop legs. Combined with the Open EVSE set at a modest charge rate (600 - 800w). I could recharge my EV over the event day from the sun. Just to drive home the message that it can be done and demonstrate the concept to people.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 11:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 20:50

Drive around Australia or in fact the world. Remember Loius Palmer and the solar taxi ?

Good observation about the plus and minus of carrying extra luggage e.g. Batteries.
In the case of the solar taxi, the solar panel trailer caused more drag than the power gain and the 'vehicle' could travel further on the two battery packs alone than with the trailer on.

What is needed is an inverter direct from your 48V of Lithium to the battery pack of the imiev via the Chademo wiring.

I would choose 350VDC at 20A constant voltage and current limited and diode isolated from an inverter live to the battery pack.
The 350VDC is at the 80% SOC level. A safe place to be working.
The inverter could be turned on all the time while driving and would only actually contribute once the main pack was down to 80%.
It could not drive the main pack above 80% (350VDC) and could only supply 20A .
In operation it would be partly reducing the load on the pack and when pack load was low (<20A) after that it would be transferring its charge to the main pack ( just appearing like regen so the imiev energy meter would be happy and continue to report battery SOC correctly.)

The advantage being that the conversion losses would be minimised compared to the inverter + charger losses (30 to 40%) of the ejerry can method. Not to mention the waiting time for charge.

Still, the ejerry can is simple.





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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 21:31

I like your idea Acmotor and if i didn't allready own the PIP4048 (that allso happens to be a up to 30A 48v battery charger ) so I can charge the Ejerrycan at the city house. I would have tryed the dc/dc converter path.

It didn't take long to top up and I was going to stop for some take away anyhow. I have to agree I wouldn't take anymore than 2kwh with me when I have 3 peaple + luggage in the car.

If it's just me or perhaps myself and my wife driving without luggage the 2nd 2kwh bank would be OK if needed.

Best bet would be to build little box shape budle of cells the same size as the LEV50 ah cells in the imiev but using Tesla style 18650 cells 24x18650 cells fit into the shape of one LEV50 24x3ah is 72ah and it is less weight than the 50ah LEV 50. Same voltages.

That way we could have a significant capacity increase with less weight than stock. Have your cake and eat it.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 13:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 23:29

"Breaking news.. Tesla battery factory offers upgrade battery packs for imiev and leaf. Direct swap in plug and play modules fully compatible with existing vehicle systems. The imiev pack is rated at 34kWh and the leaf pack at 49kWh. Both modules are around 10% less weight than the original factory units and come with 10 year 80% warranty. Modules will be shipping from 3rd quarter 2015. Prices inc.GST from capital cities in Australia are expected to be AUD$3000 for the imiev and AUD$4500 for leaf."

- source..... my imagination

Hey, let me dream Image
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 00:08

2150 x 18650 3ah cells would fit within the stock imiev battery compartment. Within the same shape and volume as as the stock LEV50's. About 24kwh that would give me a good 200km range with the weight advantage.

How much is one 18650 cell from tesla ?

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Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 21 Jun 2015, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 00:28


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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 00:54

About 10k then for 24kwh of cells and they would fit to just need to reconfigure them into 24 parallel cell blocks x 88 blocks with two terminal posts each block.

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Post by adelaide-ev » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 00:56

acmotor wrote: "Breaking news.. Tesla battery factory offers upgrade battery packs for imiev and leaf. The imiev pack is rated at 34kWh"
Oh flap......you had me going for a bit there!

Will keep dreaming too.
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 04:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by zzcoopej » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 14:10

Well done getting the eJerry working.
offgridQLD wrote: ...40kg total additional weight... I think part of the 6.5% was just the extra weight of the Ejerrycan it's self (Im going to make up some numbers now) lets say 2% of that was because it was just a bad run.


I can give you some scientific answers to that kind of question. My daughter has just finished 3 months of experiments on our iMiEV playing with the following variables during 24 x 18km trips with 2 different drivers :- drive mode, tyre pressure and added weight. It turns out that 50kg extra weight (bags of salt) takes on average 5.7% extra energy! I'll start a new thread with all the results shortly.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 15:12

Sounds like interesting data.

My thinking is weight only really contributes negatively to consumption when it needs to be lifted (hills) or when it needs to be accelerated.

So if you had a flat road with no stop start driving like a flat freeway then extra weight will only slightly effect rolling resistance.

My run on Friday night had so many stop starts due to bad luck with the traffic lights and then a lot of hills including one 500m high one at the end.

It's amazing how fine tuned to the cars consumption you can get when you do the same trip hundreds of times with live data logging running as your driving. My regular trip has become a real baseline for comparison.

I'm almost 100% sure the imiev recalabrates It's capacity on a Callander based trigger. I noticed a sudden step rather than a slow decline over 700 or so days. Others have mentioned the same thing.

It's the one area of the imiev that's a bit of a mystery. How when and why it calabrates it's capacity. It dosn't loose bars but at some point it determines what the 16 bars are a devision of. It's clear to see it dosn't always get the capacity prediction correct by the sudden steps in the SOC graph in canion. Where the SOC instantly changes to what it thinks is more on track.

I wish I had more details on how it's set up to work.


Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 05:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rusdy » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 17:03

Has anyone done direct DC charging? Even via the supplied SMPS charger? My naive understanding is you can feed DC into these things (unless the SMPS need zero crossing): Feed DC directly whitepaper


Image

As that would simply LOTS (and increase efficiency at the same time with el-cheapo DC/DC converter).

acmotor wrote: What is needed is an inverter direct from your 48V of Lithium to the battery pack of the imiev via the Chademo wiring.


Hi acmotor, do you have details on the Chademo charger with technical details within the CANbus? I wonder how the car reacts if the CANbus data is 'silent'. Is the Chademo port have direct access to the battery? I think the good technical info is buried in within Google and I can't find it Image

acmotor wrote: just appearing like regen so the imiev energy meter would be happy and continue to report battery SOC correctly


How does i-Miev sees the regen? Is the current sensing via chademo port in i-Miev dumps the data into 'regen'?

Thanks,
Rusdy

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 18:09

Rusdy, I would not suggest feeding DC to the onboard AC charger or any SMPS without clearly understanding the circuitry and adding DC rated fusing. There must not be SCR, Triac or contactors in line as these will fail to function on DC. For instance the EVSE contains a contractor that will arc and fail if opened on DC.
Having said that, I used AC SMPS in red Suzi for the 12V system off the centre tap of the 600VDC battery with suitable fusing.
The imiev may well run off DC to the J1772 but it won't be me testing it.

In the imiev, the AC charger and Chademo DC systems are well protected by the J1772 handshakes and Chademo CAN bus Comms respectively. Both are well duccumented of the net. Someone may step in here with details.

There seems little use in going the Chademo CAN direction since the Main ECU of the imiev will prevent the vehicle entering ready if either charger is in use. Just satisfying the CAN bus handshakes doesn't mean you can have battery access when driving.

If you look at the battery pack setup you can see that there is a 12V coil relay that closes the Fast DC contactor thus powering up the Chademo connector. A hack would be to directly drive this relay unbeknownst to the vehicles computers.

Image

Image

Needs less to say, once hacked, you have opened Pandora's box. Serious high current DC... But a world of charging and battery supplement options.... And a voided warranty.

I thought I saw somewhere last year that someone has experimented with this ? Anyone have the link ?
I can recall cringing at the safety aspects.

The imiev energy meter is fed by the BMU and only consideres the in and out at the battery. Regen and charge (both AC and Chademo) are in and counted as such. When not ready, charging is the in. When ready, regen is the in. The BMU tallies up the ins and outs...... So supplementing the main battery from an external source while driving along is correctly accounted for.
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Post by Rusdy » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 18:52

acmotor wrote: Rusdy, I would not suggest feeding DC to the onboard AC charger or any SMPS without clearly understanding the circuitry and adding DC rated fusing. There must not be SCR, Triac or contactors in line as these will fail to function on DC. For instance the EVSE contains a contractor that will arc and fail if opened on DC.
Having said that, I used AC SMPS in red Suzi for the 12V system off the centre tap of the 600VDC battery with suitable fusing.
The imiev may well run off DC to the J1772 but it won't be me testing it.


Totally agreed, especially "it won't be me testing it" first. That's why I asked Image . Since it's really high power SMPS, I suspect some zero crossing is required by the SMPS for some strange PFC circuit (pure guess to date). Good to know your SMPS for red Suzi can handle it, care to share the details of your SMPS charger for your red suzi (or link via message)?

Thanks for the excellent info. I guess I just need to do the 'slow' search throughout forums out there. It would be nice if all these good info in a wiki.

Right, I'll stop polluting this already excellent thread by off-topic. Sorry guys!

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Post by Johny » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 19:29

Not too far off topic Rusdy and an interesting topic anyhow.
acmotor has already shown that the iMiev charger is pretty smart in that it reduces power as input supply voltage reduces to avoid a "runaway" effect that some switching supplies/chargers suffer from.

It would not surprise me at all if there were some lowish DC voltage (I'm guessing around 100 VDC) that actually enabled the charger to operate.
An experiment with big risks though...

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Post by Johny » Mon, 22 Jun 2015, 19:37

Found acmotor's post (again).
viewtopic.php?title=imiev-charger-power ... 786#p45112
The EVSE itself would report a fault (even unplugged from the i) if the voltage was below 130V.
The i is meant to go down to ~90VAC so I guess ? the 230V EVSE was a limit.
Should try this test with other EVSEs...... maybe.
So youl'd need a USA (or other 110 VAC) EVSE to test the limits - perhaps on AC first.

Anyone in the USA on the forum with an iMiev and a Variac?

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 25 Nov 2016, 14:54

I often see ICE cars that are perhaps not very well maintained that have a thick greasy film coating of contaminants from the exhaust covering the rear of the car. Some are so bad that you want to get around them and out of the smoke ASAP.

Frogs are a good sign that the local environment is reasonably low toxicity as they are sensitive to pollution.

I have had this guy calling the Imiev home for the last few months. Every time we park the car within a few hrs this frog has settled in on a smooth cool body of the Imiev. He usually takes a bit of motivating to jump off before I go for a drive.

No he isn't squashed under the hatch Image just likes to tuck himself in there.

Image

Image

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Fri, 25 Nov 2016, 15:20

offgridQLD wrote: I have had this guy calling the Imiev home for the last few months. Every time we park the car within a few hrs this frog has settled in on a smooth cool body of the Imiev.
I have a different issue. The engine bay of my converted car keeps having redback spiders taking up residence. I guess they get cooked in an ICE vehicle. Perhaps I need a frog.
Last edited by Peter C in Canberra on Fri, 25 Nov 2016, 04:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny » Mon, 28 Nov 2016, 15:37

I have b^^%$y spider webs everywhere. No fumes or heat to make them uncomfortable. At a recent showing someone commented "you don't drive it much do you". My car had been carefully washed the night before and the webs were already back. I spluttered that it WAS my day car...

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Post by g4qber » Mon, 28 Nov 2016, 18:20

perhaps need to install one of those ultrasonic pest repellers?
https://www.pestfree.com.au
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