Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Leaf Interest Group
Emcguy
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed, 18 May 2016, 17:30
Real Name: Mark
Location: Narre Warren

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Emcguy » Thu, 19 May 2016, 13:45

Hi All,

I'm very interested in upgrading my current car to a leaf. There are currently 2 'new' leafs available on Carsales in VIC. I'm very aware that these are 4 year old vehicles now and the batteries have not been cycled through there intended usage profile. What is the general concencus on these vehicles? Are they going to loose a bar the day I drive them off the lot?

Any help appreciated,
Mark

MrD
Noobie
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon, 23 Dec 2013, 18:59
Real Name: Chris Dalitz
Location: Geurie

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by MrD » Thu, 19 May 2016, 18:47

hi mark - would you consider a 2012 i-MiEV that has been pampered ? Still under new car warranty till Jan 2018 - if so give me a call on 0409 321 470 (This vehicle is not on Car Sales or listed in the for sale section on this forum as I have insufficient posts.)
Reluctant sale - two new cars on order (including an electric)......
MrD-13MiEV

Rusdy
Groupie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon, 09 Jun 2014, 16:45
Real Name: Rusdy
Location: Australia
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Rusdy » Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:31

Hi Mark,

Short answer: Do expect 'some' battery loss. For your 'new' 2012 Leaf, do expect 100-120km in town (100% fully charged). However, for longetivity, you are expected to charge upto 80% only, so, do expect 80-90km in-town range.

Long answer:
1. It would be nice if you can get the battery report (the one you get from LeafSpy) to indicate the actual remaining Ah.
2. It is 'nice', since Leaf only predicts the remaining Ah. From my experience, it is not that accurate.
3. To date, I believe (naively), there is no detailed 'scientific' consensus on how 2012 Leaf battery degrades. Nobody had the 'dough' to do proper scientific experiment. From what I have understood so far, deep cycling is by far the biggest factor. However, the Leaf's computer prediction is strange indeed and doesn't look can be relied upon. Here is my data so far:
Image
4. My point is, even your battery is brand spanking full (66Ah), the Leaf computer will DEFINITELY NOT show that due to its prediction.

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3681
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Johny » Thu, 19 May 2016, 19:33

The advantage the Leaf has over several other EVs when buying 2nd hand is that the Battery gauge has two scales. The fatter one shows the SOC for the current charge. The thinner one shows the overall long-term battery health (Capacity Bars). To my knowledge there is no way for the dealer to fudge this.
Image

Edit: To
Last edited by Johny on Thu, 19 May 2016, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.

Emcguy
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed, 18 May 2016, 17:30
Real Name: Mark
Location: Narre Warren

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Emcguy » Thu, 19 May 2016, 20:39

Thanks,

I think my safest bet might to be to assume it looses 1 bar(~15%) immediately and then I safe charge to 80% of that. I'll then do my usage assessment based off that. My daily drive is 60km. I'll also look at getting a leafspy to get actual AmpHours and piece of mind.

Feng
Groupie
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat, 14 Sep 2013, 21:29
Real Name: Matt Tse
Location: Sydney

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Feng » Thu, 19 May 2016, 22:47

If the dealer is shady and knows what they're doing they can reset the BMS to show full capacity for a few weeks until it relearns its true capacity. Some used car buyers in the US fell victim to that.

There have been two or three Australian owners on Facebook and the owners forum who lost their first capacity bar within 10,000km. The level of charge and environment the car has been stored in the past few years plays a factor.

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Thu, 19 May 2016, 23:03

Rusdy wrote: Hi Mark,


4. My point is, even your battery is brand spanking full (66Ah), the Leaf computer will DEFINITELY NOT show that due to its prediction.


I have LEAF Spy and it has never shown 66Ah from new (bought Sept 2015). I consistently get 51Ah (and 18kWh). I believe this is an actual "measurement" and not a prediction.
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Thu, 19 May 2016, 23:10

Emcguy wrote: Hi All,

I'm very interested in upgrading my current car to a leaf. There are currently 2 'new' leafs available on Carsales in VIC. I'm very aware that these are 4 year old vehicles now and the batteries have not been cycled through there intended usage profile. What is the general concencus on these vehicles? Are they going to loose a bar the day I drive them off the lot?

Any help appreciated,
Mark


If possible obtain (buy or borrow) an OBDII and LEAF Spy and "measure" the LEAF on the showroom floor. I wish I had done that back in September as it is now too late to expect any consideration if I suggest it was "probably" less than new specs when I bought it.

I still love it though:-).
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

Emcguy
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed, 18 May 2016, 17:30
Real Name: Mark
Location: Narre Warren

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Emcguy » Fri, 20 May 2016, 13:43

Sorry MrD,

I need 5 seats (have 3 kids) otherwise I'd have definitely considered it.

Rusdy
Groupie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon, 09 Jun 2014, 16:45
Real Name: Rusdy
Location: Australia
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Rusdy » Fri, 20 May 2016, 16:42

jeffthewalker wrote:
I have LEAF Spy and it has never shown 66Ah from new (bought Sept 2015). I consistently get 51Ah (and 18kWh). I believe this is an actual "measurement" and not a prediction.


I still have my doubt. The only actual "measurement" is if you fully charge it and settled at 4.2V per cell, and discharge it completely until the cut-off voltage.

Unless... Nissan has came up with an actual method to measure without charge-discharge cycle (like this one). I highly doubt it Image All the model to date are calculation based, not actual. Some do better, some don't.

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Fri, 20 May 2016, 18:29

Rusdy wrote:
jeffthewalker wrote:
I have LEAF Spy and it has never shown 66Ah from new (bought Sept 2015). I consistently get 51Ah (and 18kWh). I believe this is an actual "measurement" and not a prediction.


I still have my doubt. The only actual "measurement" is if you fully charge it and settled at 4.2V per cell, and discharge it completely until the cut-off voltage.

Unless... Nissan has came up with an actual method to measure without charge-discharge cycle (like this one). I highly doubt it Image All the model to date are calculation based, not actual. Some do better, some don't.


Thanks for the link. I have worked with strain gauges and this looks like a definitive answer. I will check my cell voltage (total voltage divided by 96) at today's full charge and see that it is stopping at 4.2V and not below.

I just drove 143.9km (odometer) and ran to empty. I pulled over and powered up the generator I am carrying for this crossing. I was 300meters short of my next charging point:-(. Note the energy economy of 0.11 kWh/km. I am aiming for 0.10 for the next leg which is 185km and dead flat.

I had a bit of a scare as the LEAF would not take a full, consistent charge for a few minutes. As I heard the load on the generator changing and LEAF Spy telling me the charging power was all over the place, I thought at first it was a fault (water in fuel?) in the generator. After it came good I concluded that the battery management was bringing the battery up to a chargeable level gently.

ImageImage
Last edited by jeffthewalker on Fri, 20 May 2016, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

Rusdy
Groupie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon, 09 Jun 2014, 16:45
Real Name: Rusdy
Location: Australia
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Rusdy » Sat, 21 May 2016, 00:24

jeffthewalker wrote:
I will check my cell voltage (total voltage divided by 96) at today's full charge and see that it is stopping at 4.2V and not below.
I don't think you can charge 2012 Leaf up to real 100% (i.e. 4.2V per cell). At best, 91-92% (i.e. 4.1V per cell). But hey, that's a good thing!
jeffthewalker wrote:
I just drove 143.9km (odometer) and ran to empty. I pulled over and powered up the generator I am carrying for this crossing. I was 300meters short of my next charging point:-(. Note the energy economy of 0.11 kWh/km. I am aiming for 0.10 for the next leg which is 185km and dead flat.
Wow! Did I say WOW!!! Did you travel 60kph all the way? That was very good. I'm looking forward for your update! You should've make an online diary for this. I'm sure lots of Leaf owners would love to see your detailed update (travelled distance, charging saga, etc).

After long journey in the South West (RAC chargers), I'm now more confident in planning 'long' journey. I just need to tone down my own expectation on the Leaf, especially regarding the usability window, i.e.:
1. 2012 Leaf usable SOC window is between 20% to 90%, i.e. only 70% of the 'full' battery charge (as shown in LeafSpy). This is my subjective comfortable window though, I'm sure Leaf allows you down to 10% (up to turtle mode).
2. Out of this, I can calculate my kWh available, and calculate real range based on the expected kWh/km

It's pretty damn accurate (instead of relying guess-o-meter). For example, my past example: click here

antday
Noobie
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed, 27 Aug 2014, 22:14
Real Name: Antony Day
Location: Australia

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by antday » Wed, 25 May 2016, 20:12

Also wondering about Jeff's speed - 143.9km is quite impressive on the open road.
I'm a fellow "new 2012" owner bought ( somewhat impulsively ) in feb 2016. I need to try out the EH sometime to gain confidence in the Leaf's range. My SOH ( via leaf spy pro ) is 79% ( sadly ) , I'm one bar down , I was hoping that would get me 90+ kms at highway speeds, sounds like this may be a bit stretchy but maybe at 80kmh I might be ok.

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Thu, 26 May 2016, 21:04

antday wrote: Also wondering about Jeff's speed - 143.9km is quite impressive on the open road.
I'm a fellow "new 2012" owner bought ( somewhat impulsively ) in feb 2016. I need to try out the EH sometime to gain confidence in the Leaf's range. My SOH ( via leaf spy pro ) is 79% ( sadly ) , I'm one bar down , I was hoping that would get me 90+ kms at highway speeds, sounds like this may be a bit stretchy but maybe at 80kmh I might be ok.


My speed is adjustable:-). I say that because none of the other factors are.

Speed (and probably weight) of the vehicle, head/tail wind component and elevation (overall or variable) are the big factors affecting my range.

The wind can be considered before a journey from weather reports. The overall elevation change can be found with an internet search. However, variable elevation would take a lot of local knowledge or additional research. I also factor in the generalisation that the wind is less in the early hours (but this necessitates headlights).

With potential charging places widely separated, that leaves me with vehicle speed to adjust for adequate range.

Fortunately, across the Nullarbor (just completed), the large gaps between the charging places (roadhouses) coincides with very reduced traffic levels. This journey for me is an exercise in what can be done and time is my friend. If I am on a range challenged (for whatever reason) distance I have been able to drop my speed to 40km at some times as the destination gets further out of reach.

To answer your question about what speed I am driving at, I have to say that it varies from 40k/h up to 90k/h (with small bursts to 110). I find it impossible to estimate range for an upcoming leg. And this is the problem for the programmers who give us the GOM numbers:-).

After 16,500km I still have 12 bars. 85% SOH. I charge to 100% almost all of the time (17.7kWh 50Ah ).

I absolutely love my LEAF. It is a perfect solution to the "around town" function. And lots of fun pushing the envelope:-).
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jonescg » Fri, 27 May 2016, 00:01

Looking forward to seeing on our side of the paddock Jeff!
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

Rusdy
Groupie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon, 09 Jun 2014, 16:45
Real Name: Rusdy
Location: Australia
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by Rusdy » Fri, 27 May 2016, 00:09

jeffthewalker wrote:
...but this necessitates headlights...


I wouldn't worry too much about the headlight. With LED headlights, it wouldn't consume more than 50 Watts (complete with the 'little' lights). With your 0.11kWh/km figure, and an hour driving, you'll loose 400-ish metre of range.

With the fog lights ON though,you'll lose 900 metres more (per hour of driving), which in total, close to 1.5km range lost. Now, that makes a difference! Especially knowing you're 700 metres out just before!! Image

antday
Noobie
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed, 27 Aug 2014, 22:14
Real Name: Antony Day
Location: Australia

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by antday » Fri, 27 May 2016, 00:18

Have you found the Blue Earth tyres have made much of a difference?

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Fri, 27 May 2016, 01:56

antday wrote: Have you found the Blue Earth tyres have made much of a difference?


I would love to say that I have, but...

It is impossible to tell any difference with rolling resistance as the other variables (speed, wind, elevation) make even a 10% (optimistically) difference due to tyres to be virtually unnoticeable. It would require a controlled environment like a dynamometer or two identical cars on a test track.

Having said that, I think I have noticed a difference in road noise.

The very friendly folks at Yokohama in Melbourne gave me a demonstration counter-top "rig" with a sloping ramp and two toy sized cars. One with "normal" composition tyres and the other with the u-beaut new stuff. Very impressive difference. I will be able to set it up at EV meetings. They say they changed the tyres (and other checks??) but the tyres were what made the difference.

My camera video on utube https://youtu.be/0T5aI7cfIGs
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Fri, 27 May 2016, 02:01

Rusdy wrote:
jeffthewalker wrote:
...but this necessitates headlights...


I wouldn't worry too much about the headlight. With LED headlights, it wouldn't consume more than 50 Watts (complete with the 'little' lights). With your 0.11kWh/km figure, and an hour driving, you'll loose 400-ish metre of range.

With the fog lights ON though,you'll lose 900 metres more (per hour of driving), which in total, close to 1.5km range lost. Now, that makes a difference! Especially knowing you're 700 metres out just before!! Image
I have always thought so, too, and told others the lights don't take much away.

But, LEAF Spy told me 100 watts Aux and at 0.11kWh per km that is more like 9%. But the 100W might be rounded up and also includes other aux draw. And the 0.11kWh might be rounded down:-). Oh for some more precise data.
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

alexeiw123
Groupie
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 25 Mar 2015, 18:14
Real Name: Lex
Location: NSW
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by alexeiw123 » Mon, 04 Jul 2016, 16:04

This might be useful info for you.

My day to day is a conversion EV but my parents bought a "new" leaf a few (maybe 4?) months ago (2012, trucked up from VIC). I'm driving it for the time being while they're overseas.. because why not?

I charged it to 100% for a longer drive on the weekend, here's a view of the dash before I set off. only 4000kms on it. Still has all the bars, full range on the guessometer of 168km (That's ECO mode, aircon off).

That's around what you should expect from one of those that are still in storage.

The charge timer is set to charge to 80% at all times unless the charge timer is disabled.

Image

User avatar
jeffthewalker
Groupie
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon, 07 Dec 2015, 21:43
Real Name: Jeff Johnson
Location: Queensland
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by jeffthewalker » Mon, 04 Jul 2016, 16:56

alexeiw123 wrote: This might be useful info for you.

I charged it to 100% for a longer drive on the weekend, here's a view of the dash before I set off. only 4000kms on it. Still has all the bars, full range on the guessometer of 168km (That's ECO mode, aircon off).
Thanks for the feedback.

My concern is with the kWh as reported by LEAF Spy on a full charge. The best I have seen is 18kWh and I would like 24kWh (who wouldn't). I would be interested to know what you can read with LEAF Spy.

The guessometer will "calculate" the range remaining based on previous driving conditions. I have had mine show 176km (eco mode, air con off) with 15,600km on the clock (after a particularly light-footed previous day).

Image
It is hard to make predictions, especially about the future. Yogi Berra

alexeiw123
Groupie
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 25 Mar 2015, 18:14
Real Name: Lex
Location: NSW
Contact:

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by alexeiw123 » Mon, 04 Jul 2016, 17:27

jeffthewalker wrote:
alexeiw123 wrote: This might be useful info for you.

I charged it to 100% for a longer drive on the weekend, here's a view of the dash before I set off. only 4000kms on it. Still has all the bars, full range on the guessometer of 168km (That's ECO mode, aircon off).
Thanks for the feedback.

My concern is with the kWh as reported by LEAF Spy on a full charge. The best I have seen is 18kWh and I would like 24kWh (who wouldn't). I would be interested to know what you can read with LEAF Spy.

The guessometer will "calculate" the range remaining based on previous driving conditions. I have had mine show 176km (eco mode, air con off) with 15,600km on the clock (after a particularly light-footed previous day).


Ah ok. I have leafspy (haven't really used it, but it connects) So I can 100% charge it again and check for you. I will probably wait until right before I need to drive as I'd rather not leave it at 100% charge for no reason. Might need to educate me on where I can see the available energy. Is it in the free version?

I didn't realise the guessometer used previous driving to guess range when it was full. I was swearing I'd seen it higher. I've been using the heater a bit and well, I enjoy the torque! ;)

thardy456
Noobie
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat, 18 Jul 2015, 19:50
Real Name: Tony Hardy
Location: Melbourne

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by thardy456 » Mon, 04 Jul 2016, 18:35

We recently changed from an iMiev to a LEAF. With the imiev the previous drive economy definately helped the next range reading.
Cheers, T.
2010 iMiEV (ex-WA)
2004 Prius itech
6kW solar PV

KiegKhan
Groupie
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 13:38
Real Name: Jason
Location: Ballarat

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by KiegKhan » Sat, 30 Jul 2016, 03:56

Love these pics. With that generator, I guess you could say your Leaf is a hybrid!
Last edited by KiegKhan on Sat, 06 Aug 2016, 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
Leaf'n the ICE age behind

KiegKhan
Groupie
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 13:38
Real Name: Jason
Location: Ballarat

Concern: 'New 2012' in 2016

Post by KiegKhan » Sat, 30 Jul 2016, 04:06

Here's a funny story. I found about the Leaf and thought I would enquire into it. That was at the start of 2016, dropped into my local Nissan dealer, nope they do not sell the Leaf and cannot tell me anything about it because they are not a Leaf dealer.
Rang around my capital city, this dealer referred me to that dealer, finally found two dealers with Leaf's in stock. Apparently they are going out of stock, no idea when a new model will arrive. So go and have a test drive, not a bad car. Of course, now I find out these are 2012 built cars, being sold in 2016, go figure.
A bit of research and you see there are going to be battery problems, especially as dealers probably don't know how to keep them in the proper condition (I say this because they barely seem to know anything about the Leaf and just keep trying to sell me an ICE).
So $40k is too rich for my blood, especially for a 4yr old car. So I give an offer I think is reasonable, based on 4yrs of depreciation and an initial price of $52k, reckon $26k would be realistic. This is a few months later, Tesla Model 3 has been announced, it is End of Financial Year, you might think Nissan would be keen to move some of these old cars.
Sounds like I was right, the dealer tells me there are no more cars left, best to wait a few months and ex-manager cars will become available for about $25k. Fair enough.
So I take a look on CarSales.com and see a few Leaf's in my area, look like low mileage demo models. So contact one of them. Blow me down, it is the same dealer who just told me there were none left!!
Now I don't mind if they told me $26k was too low and they could do one for X, but to basically lie, they just lost my business.
At the end of the day I got a 2nd hand Leaf for a bit more than $25k, so I'm reasonably happy.
Nissan looks like they still have a few 4yr old Leaf's to move.
Leaf'n the ICE age behind

Post Reply