Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

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tassie_tiger
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by tassie_tiger » Tue, 25 Aug 2009, 01:38


Just wondering if anyone has any experience with their kits?


http://elationebikes.com.au/
My hobby interests are EV's and competitions. aeva.asn.au for ev's and www.lottos.com.au for competitions. If your partner complains about you ev'ing, send 'em to lottos!

gannet
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by gannet » Sun, 20 Sep 2009, 03:35

Yeah, I have had one fitted and in use for about a month now.

It's working, but taking a while to learn how to use it most effectively. Mostly to work about 35k round trip, including a killer hill. It seems to pedal about as well as it did before on flat and even slight rises. At this stage I only use the boost for a few ks of hills, and it helps, but sure doesn't do it all. I should say I have about 90 kgs of bulk for it to move.


There have been a few assembly 'details' that didn't seem to look or go quite as per the manual. I have had it at a local shop (with ebike experience) to finish installation, and am going back to get dual control levers fitted to see if helps the throttle / gear shift / brake lever fit closely enough together to work practically.

I really need to follow up with the company and see how they respond to these 'issues' before I could really recommend one way or the other. - (but it takes time - and emotional energy - to articulate an email properly, raise the issues in a delicate manner, explain in sufficient detail etc etc, and I've been just too busy lately).

Generally, I think there are a few moves to allow slightly more powerful motors ( maybe 250W as this is common world wide ) or 400W (like in France, I think?). Perhaps even having a low power registration category.   I would suggest holding off for a bit if you don't need one now.

( and about time I actually started posting on here )

antiscab
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by antiscab » Sun, 20 Sep 2009, 07:09

welcome to the forum gannet :)

Matt
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by Ian » Sat, 06 Feb 2010, 01:40

I've bought one. I paid for it in early December 2009, expecting to have it delivered before Christmas.

To be fair, it wasn't their fault that they didn't deliver before Christmas. The shipment of parts was damaged.

So, finally, 2 weeks ago (late January 2010), with some excitement, I received my kit.

My bicycle has been in the shop for the last 2 weeks having the kit installed. You see, eLation Bikes accidentally sent my battery mounting components to someone else. So on Tuesday this week (2 February 2010) Allan Dow sent my battery mounting components.

I'm not quite sure where{/I] he sent them. He certainly didn't send them to me!! Here it is, Friday 5 February, and still no sign of my battery components. He sent them via courier - had he sent them by Australia Post, they would have been delivered within 2 days.

I'm not sure how well the kit works. I'm not even sure I'll even get the entire kit, at this rate. If and when I can actually test it, I'll let you know.

In the meantime, I can tell you that eLation Bikes are extremely disorganised and s-l-o-w to deliver. I can also tell you that it will take a lot more than the hour and a half claimed in the instructions to instal lthe kit. My bike mechanic took an hour and a half to get about halfway through it. I think 4 hours is a more reasonable time to claim.

I can also tell you that you definitely don't want to install it yourself, unless you're a professional. This is a difficult and complex thing to install.

Also, be aware that if you wheel the bike backwards, it drives the motor. Also, on mine, the chain guard was only glued on - and not with much glue, either.

This post may have sounded a little negative, but actually I have high hopes for the kit, although I'm more than a little annoyed that I haven't got all of it yet.

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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by naughtee » Thu, 01 Jul 2010, 00:01

certainly have, i saw the elation kit on the "new inventors" looks great, contacted the guy, after some questions i decided to go with the kit

allan made me an offer to put money up front "order on the way" etc DONT DO IT!

to cut the long long long story short i wouldn't touch that company, months and months passed, only excuses were delivered in the end

i had to walk away

i only posted this now, as i managed to forget all about the drama until a friend wanted to buy a system and was asking around, it seems a mutual friend of ours has a work buddy who has had a very similar experience to myself, reading through his email it all came back and i felt i should let you know




9psi
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by 9psi » Sat, 03 Jul 2010, 03:23

I've bought an eLation 200W kit. Fantastic Kit! when it doesn't konk out whenever there is a few drops of water around.   

Image

However I am able to average 40km/h on a mountain bike with road slicks (sitting on 43km/h) when the kit doesn't die.

I'm an electronics engineer so I'm keen to see inside the controller and throttle guts to se why it just dies randomly.

I would recommend the crank set up as I was able to ride 15km with the dead weight.

My problems with the kit

1. The throttle is not compatible with Shimano Rapid Fire shifters - only with crummy 7 or 8 spd Ezy Fire shifter as per the photo on the website (the text says any trigger shifters
2. The driven chainring is for lazy buggers who don't spin so I out pedal the motor and BLDC's run out of torque at high rpm, I need to put a smaller chainring for higher pedalling rpm.
3. the throttle only really works from 8tenths to full throttle
4. the kit takes lots of hours to install, and it is fiddly and scratches your frame.
5. battery is not good enough and it is expensive - you need 24V 15AH to go full tilt for an hour

$1000 down the toilet? I may make my own using a slim half grip throttle mounted on the outside of my left handgrip and a better controller and a 20AH battery - whats the point if I can't have full noise full time - I can ride my cervelo if I want to hammer myself

From previous posts and other forums I'm not holding much hope to get working bits for my bike from the supplier.
Techs should always have the power of veto over Engineer Designs

antiscab
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by antiscab » Sat, 03 Jul 2010, 03:49

you could increase the system voltage to get more power at higher speed with the BLDC motor.

Matt
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9psi
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by 9psi » Thu, 08 Jul 2010, 03:38

I want to keep it legal (<200W)

I did fix the problem it was poor electronics workmanship

the randomness was just as it broke and made connections

I think the best gauge would be a Ammeter

I also put the throttle on the left hand which is 50x better but still isn't integrated - just passable

another thing I have noticed - you have to let the battery heat up when it is near freezing otherwise it says the battery is going flat. I imagine this is a battery electrolyte chemistry thing -beyond me.
Techs should always have the power of veto over Engineer Designs

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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by Gregb » Fri, 09 Jul 2010, 03:17

I bought one and now wish I hadn't. The battery carked in under 6 months of intermittent use and because I was a couple of weeks late reporting it he refused to do anything about it. Got a smart a**se reply, send me $100.oo and I'll test it and $600 and I'll send you a new battery. I do like the mechanical side of it (the free wheel crank) but the mounting on my bike was extremely tricky and I only got abusive emails from him when I showed him how I had overcome the limitations of his design on my frame. (I was trying to be helpful) He doesn't believe in washers under bolts even on Aluminium. Image When I complained that the engine mount wasn't square (88 deg as opposed to 90) and I couldn't get the drive chain exactly perpendicular he replied that that is how blocks of Al come !
I have since dismantled the battery and despite his claims of it having a BMS I dispute that claim. There are two appallingly made PCBs with a number of what appear to be mosfets and a series of capacitors. I suspect these return a signal to the charger when the battery is "charged" I can see no sign of balancing eg shunts. These boards are held together with adhesive tape and heavily covered in resin. The cells are large flat "bag" types. You wouldn't believe the quality or lack of it on the soldering. ( I am a retired STO electronics and comms) The battery cover is very attractive but his own literature admits that the LEDs on the end don't actually tell you anything. The controller has "ORO" on it but I can find no hits on this brand but it looks well made.. Despite abusing me he appears to have used my tips nas now advises it will fit my type of frame. (A mountain bike type.)
I have written to Qld Fair Trading but they weren't interested.
I didn't find his instructions particularly helpful and didn't get the ones concerned with the electrics just a brief addendum on the installation.
As I said, I like the free wheeling pedal system but that is about all. Mounting is fiddly but I actually expected that and the torque of the motor is excellent. Just don't buy his batteries.   Image

PS I understand this is not the design he took on New Inventors ( saw it on a forum somewhere) and I intend to write to them and let them sort it out as I may be wrong.

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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by Gregb » Fri, 09 Jul 2010, 03:24

PS I bought new click type gear levers and it integrates quite well on the throttle.

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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by eLation » Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 16:32

Hi All,

I try to sit back and allow people to have their say on forums, until it becomes clear there is an extreme bias to statements, omissions of information, or outright lies.

We do have failures and we do accept this. This has never been denied. We also believe we address these problems within both good business practice guidelines, and definitely within our legal requirements.
eLation will do whatever it can to assist it’s clients. We continue to accept feedback from clients, and some changes made over time are based on this valuable feedback. What gets me ‘touchy’ though is people that make false claims about issues that do not really exist if they pay attention to their installation and information provided on web.

Let’s start with Ian:

We accepted that a part was omitted from his system, and we responded immediately. What is not stated by Ian is that the second set also mysteriously did not arrive. I apologised and offered to refund the FULL amount of his system because we did not have another set to send immediately. This was not good enough for him and there come threats of legal action, etc.

I followed up approx 2 weeks late asking if he wished to accept refund, his comment was along lines that he had "found another use for the system"!!!!!! I am sorry but the inconsistancy in his emails suggested that maybe parts did eventually arrive but his nose was now out of joint. I did the best I could including the offer of a full refund. I was not able to supply the parts as we run a tight budget and keep limited ‘spares’ on parts we would not expect to have issues with. We had no kits or relevant part in stock and knew would be approx 6 weeks before available.

Naughtee:

I am a bit confused here; you seem to be critical of the eLation system yet it appears you have never actually ever had one. Yes we have on occasion had unforeseen delays, and as soon as these are apparent we advised clients by email. WE ALSO advise that if they have concerns over the delay we will offer an IMMEDIATE refund. We only need a ship to arrive one day after its scheduled date and it can cause a larger flow on effect to clear Customs, etc. Then on occasion, since we have LCL freight it sometimes gets damaged. We do not like delays anymore than a client, but I defy ANYONE to say they have had money withheld or not offered to be refunded as soon as we are aware of the issue.

Also, we are VERY CLEAR with the T&Cs PRIOR TO ACCEPTING THE PURCHASE and offer substantial discounts (+$400) for up front payment. We have ALWAYS made available the option to pay NOTHING until the shipment arrives at full price. But naturally, ‘some people’ tend to forget these minor points when it suits them.

We do not have a bank roll stashed away to place +$70,000 against stock and then wait 2-3 months for delivery. For this reason and the populrity of the system we find that our shipments do sell +90% prior to landing and so it is unfortunate that people have to wait for delivery. But again, EVERY PERSON is made aware of expected delivery dates of up to 4-6 weeks away from when order is placed.

Next 9PSI:

Well there is no doubt who this is, as your posting is the same as EVERY SINGLE EMAIL you send, pointing out that you are an Electronics Engineer; and as I said in my last email when you touted all your credentials (again); “So what”. I too am an Electronic Engineer; it does not make me infallible, nor change the fact that I sometimes get it wrong. You have shown in your post to be a perfect example.

You sent a number of emails claiming water ingress to be an issue. I offered simple effective advise on what you can do if this was the case (I had my doubts, as we have only ever had two such cases in North QLD tropics) INCLUDING sending back for us to assess any issue you may have. You decided not to. It now turns out there was a lose/broken wire. This is unfortunate and naturally not acceptable. However if sent back, we would have rectified and then did computer based testing on our load bank to ensure the issue was fully resolved.

Your claim that the throttle is an issue with the Rapid Fires is disputable and possible operator issue. For example, the Esperia bikes we use have rapid fire, as does many of the bikes the system has been installed on. The throttle is not compatible with twist levers gears and can be an issue with gear changers with both levers under the handle bar. If your claim was so prevalent then we would see a large number of posts making similar claims I would think, since there are approx 800 systems out there.

You decided to start getting high and mighty when I advised I would not accommodate your requests for circuit drawings and supplier details (even though you tried to justify it being ok to do as you are an electronic engineer). In one of your emails you even requested a price for a replacement controller in case you made an error in your ventures.

Finally, as an Electronic Engineer Image Image , I am very surprised at your comment “I imagine this is a battery electrolyte chemistry thing -beyond me.” This is common for all types of battery chemistry. As an aside, Li based cells are at there most efficient at 60C, so it does correlate with your comment. Fortunately as batteries are used, the internal heat creates a self warming effect that assists ‘get batteries up to speed’.

Lastly GregB:

Your emails contradict your claim that the battery ‘carked it’ in under six months. You acknowledge in one of your emails that the battery was out of warranty period. You also advised that battery was not operating after returning from an extended holiday. I pointed out in the user manual about the need to periodically charge the pack. After this you made claims that you had kept it charged over the holiday. I offered to receive the pack back and undertake any action we could to ascertain the problem.

As you had stated in your email, the pack was out of warranty, and so yes we did advise a service cost. But this cost is charged to not only find the problem, but it most cases rectify it and return via courier service. Your follow up email to this was “I will consider my options”. You advised one of your past jobs was to maintain batteries. If this was the case you would have also known that had we obtained the pack our testing would have been able to identify if the pack had not been charged.

You then go on to state in your post “I didn't find his instructions particularly helpful and didn't get the ones concerned with the electrics…”, yet in one of your emails you state “I read manufacturer’s instructions on handling them”. Hmmmm

Finally, your comment of there being no BMS in the pack is laughable. I will challenge you openly on this forum to prove this statement. If you are able to validate your claim I will refund your purchase IN FULL.
What will you offer if you are wrong?

Balancing of cells in +99.9% of electric bikes is a cyclic function. The capacitors in question are used as a form of charge pack. The capacitors take on a charge and then bleed into the respective cells, and is seen as one of the more effective methods of balanced charged in electric bikes.

To all forum members:
If you want facts and knowledge then we continue to prove our value to +99% of our clients. It is the client who thinks they could not possibly make a mistake, or expects us to accommodate their failings that have the biggest issue with us; as I will advise the client if I think they are wrong.

I have stated before in other forums, if you want wind blown up your ar*e then eLation is probably not for you. I will continue to advise client’s what they need to know to allow them to make an informed decision, not what they may want to hear to satisfy their own ego or to close a sale; and yes this has sometimes meant I have advised the client that our system is not suited for them and have lost sale.

I give the following assurance to all current and future clients:
  • I will always provide the best advice I can relating to the individual's needs, even if this means losing a sale.
  • I will always show them the same level of respect that they show me.

naughtee
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Elation Bikes - anyone used their kit?

Post by naughtee » Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 17:00

"I am a bit confused here; you seem to be critical of the eLation system yet it appears you have never actually ever had one."

i am not critical of the elation system, i am critical of my experience dealing with your 'company' (as i said), i commented on the experience i had attempting to buy one, not the system...

"Also, we are VERY CLEAR with the T&Cs PRIOR TO ACCEPTING THE PURCHASE and offer substantial discounts (+$400) for up front payment. We have ALWAYS made available the option to pay NOTHING until the shipment arrives at full price. But naturally, ‘some people’ tend to forget these minor points when it suits them."

"clear" you have to be joking, i could not be naffed going through the multitudes of emails i have regarding the dealings with elation, i can assure you "clear" is a word i would not use to describe them, what a nerve, months and months and months not days... playing off your distributor, it was very bad business


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Post by eLation » Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 17:12

Hi Naughtee

Since you are using an online name I cannot make more specific comments.

However feel free to send an email advising your name. I will then review all the emails so I can validate your concerns. This way all you need to do is spend 10 seconds to send email and I will cover the time to research your vagueness. This will allow you to continue being 'naffed'.
Last edited by eLation on Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 07:14, edited 1 time in total.

naughtee
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Post by naughtee » Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 18:03

eLation wrote: Hi Naughtee

Since you are using an online name I cannot make more specific comments.

However feel free to send an email advising your name. I will then review all the emails so I can validate your concerns. This way all you need to do is spend 10 seconds to send email and I will cover the time to research your vagueness. This will allow you to continue being 'naffed'.


... "specific comments" you mean miss-quotes as above, you've demonstrated your arrogance and ineptitude as a business operator on this very forum without the need to pick through emails and waste any more of my time, thank you

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Post by eLation » Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 18:42

Hi Naughtee

Yes, I accept I misread your comments, but I do not believe that invalidates my questions to clarify your specific criticisms.

Maybe you could point people to Endless Sphere

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... on#p288990

which shows a lot of positive experience, or Andi's blog on our website:

http://elationebikes.com.au/andi's_blog.htm

I will accept I may have some personality traits that don’t sit well with the “used car sales person” expectations. I am the first to admit I am not a sales person. But it does not make the information or knowledge I provide invalid.

I will continue to try and improve both the eLation product and the eLation business, based on ALL valid feedback.

As a final point to this end, GregB comment:
"PS I understand this is not the design he took on New Inventors ( saw it on a forum somewhere) and I intend to write to them and let them sort it out as I may be wrong.".

That is correct Greg, what was shown on the New Inventors in 2006 was Version 1. With the high interest it generated, eLation was born and Version 2 developed, based on feedback from V1 clients and a desire to offer the best we could for a given budget and technology at the time.

This why we have spent more money on R&D and are in final stages of Version 3 testing. A large number of changes exist because of ALL the feedback we receive in relation to Version 2, both negative and positive.

naughtee
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Post by naughtee » Mon, 12 Jul 2010, 23:32

"Yes, I accept I misread your comments, but I do not believe that invalidates my questions to clarify your specific criticisms. "

when we discussed this on the phone originally was the time for you to clarify any specific criticisms, i do not intend to go over and over this, had you stuck to your original agreement i would probably be one of the happy customers.

..."used car sales person expectations" you'd have to elaborate on that, i have no idea what you are talking about, honesty, courtesy and delivery are the expectations i have with my business dealings, if that is what you mean by the automotive industry comment, then yes, perhaps your business would benefit by outsourcing your sales through a used car yard

as mentioned originally, this only came up due to the research being undertaken by a colleague for his ebike. asking around, he discovered other people were not happy with their elation experiences, once i spied these, it all came flooding back (the comments of others were all so familiar), so i felt it fair to balance some of the positive experiences you mention with the one i had (it seems others did so as well)


9psi
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Post by 9psi » Tue, 13 Jul 2010, 03:55

to the other readers

Yeah I asked for circuit diagrams because I wanted it integrated better on my bike - deore shifters that are integrated with brake levers dont work - you have to offset them. I thought that just the Crank set was what made the eLation system better than others. I *thought* the rest of the stuff would just be bought in from china - my apologies to eLation for asking for IP which I thought was just COTS from a catalogue - I did not ask or insist after I was advised that the the Controller etc it eLation IP.

I also pulled apart the battery - because of the old posts on response times and I was panicking that I'd done my dough.

Credit to the eLation concept- it makes for phenomenally fast urban commuting nearly 40km in 65mins, I use it so the orange indicator appear about 5 mins before I finish my commute. I will keep it on my bike. I will also put a smaller drive chainring on it so that it produces power at the RPM I want to spin. And when this battery is cactus I will get a larger capacity battery so that I can keep it at 80% for the whole trip.

However I agree with other posts that the instructions aren't that good - take it or leave it.

When you buy a BB make sure it has a unbreako / allen key head, the cranks are thick so you need a standard socket wont do it up tight. If you have impact sockets you'll be fine.

Good luck to anyone else who buys the kit and if a user posts a photo of how the rapid fire (not ezy fire) shifters work around the body of the throttle I will bow to their genius.

I recommend using the throttle on on the left hand - so your right hand can do the gears and front brake without a problem, you'll seldom need to change chain rings and its better to change the chain rings with pedalling only.
Techs should always have the power of veto over Engineer Designs

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Post by gibbo » Wed, 14 Jul 2010, 23:20

I have an elation which i'm quite happy with as i've had only a few issues with which i'm comfortable working with. I had a loose bottom bracket on my new bike which i fixed and i had a problem with my freewheel clutch ( which was the model previous to the current one ) which was fixed under warranty by the agent i bought through. I do a 25km round trip to my work ,charging each eveving . over 120 recharges over 3000km and am really happy with it. I paid fuul price for the kit on a bike built by an agent at the time and performs well. I wished i'd waited for his specials he has from time to time but I didnt.

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Post by Gregb » Thu, 15 Jul 2010, 16:27


Your emails contradict your claim that the battery ‘carked it’ in under six months. You acknowledge in one of your emails that the battery was out of warranty period. You also advised that battery was not operating after returning from an extended holiday. I pointed out in the user manual about the need to periodically charge the pack. After this you made claims that you had kept it charged over the holiday. I offered to receive the pack back and undertake any action we could to ascertain the problem.
My emails contradict nothing. The battery "died" before I went to NZ for 2 weeks (extended period" ???. I had not realised I was about two weeks out of your warranty ( I have since been advised on a number of forums and by a couple of manufacturers that if you can't get at least 12 months warranty then don't buy the battery.) The battery was placed on the charger the moment I got home but turned off after a minute or two. It was left on until I got home and still wouldn't work. The voltage was 2.1 V per cell when I dismantled it. I have trickle charged them to 2.6V each and am waiting to see what the self discharge rate is. I then intend to do a discahge test. I suspect the fault may be in the Mosfets. I have pulled it apart and as stated is among the worst soldering and PCB manufacture I have ever seen in 40 years in electronics.
There is unfortunately no universal definition of a BMS v a VMS yet, but yours by most definitions falls short of being a BMS, it probably qualifies as a VMS on most EV sites.   I can see no shunt for charge balance and I have pulled it apart to see if I can work out if it has low voltage cutoff as well as overcharge cut off. This is very difficult as it has been dipped in a very hard resin, probably to stop this. There are complaints on some German sites about the quality of the monitoring system. (Nothing to do with you) I doubt if you have ever pulled one apart and seen the innards, if you have then you have absolutely no idea on acceptable quality.
I think the mechanical side is good and have said so. It was delivered on time. I am extremely impressed with the free wheeling. I even sent you a list of what I had done to overcome the limitations of my type of frame and received a most abusive reply from you. I believe you have increased the length of the chain clamps. I just can't recommend anyone buy a battery from you.
PS The lack of washers on an aluminium mount is a disgrace.


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Post by Gregb » Thu, 15 Jul 2010, 16:56

9psi wrote: to the other readers

Y
When you buy a BB make sure it has a unbreako / allen key head, the cranks are thick so you need a standard socket wont do it up tight. If you have impact sockets you'll be fine.

I overfcame this with a lock washer.

Gregb
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Post by Gregb » Thu, 15 Jul 2010, 17:18

PS Alan, if it is an improved version of what I saw on the new inventors, SAY SO for heavens sake. Say something like "Even better than as seen on new inventors". It is good advertising and removes any hint of duplicity....

Greg

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Post by Gregb » Sun, 25 Jul 2010, 04:29

as a further disincentive I have just found out the battery charger supplied has no brand name or model number. It looks ok in a nice Al case but that means nothing. has 2 leds one foe "on" and a dual for "charging" "charged". No idea what its specs are.

Gregb
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Post by Gregb » Sun, 25 Jul 2010, 04:30

as a further disincentive I have just found out the battery charger supplied has no brand name or model number. It looks ok in a nice Al case but that means nothing. has 2 leds one foe "on" and a dual for "charging" "charged". No idea what its specs are.

gibbo
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Post by gibbo » Sun, 25 Jul 2010, 23:02

Why would the fact it doesnt have a brand name be a disincentive? Its not rocket science to spend time on the net to learn about batteries and their chargers. Mine has the following info on it- 29v , 3A, 100-240Vac model KP3003JL. Maybe u should copy it to your charger , but it charges the batteries so why worry about crap like u mention
Last edited by gibbo on Sun, 25 Jul 2010, 13:03, edited 1 time in total.

9psi
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Post by 9psi » Thu, 29 Jul 2010, 03:54

Fix it tips:

Riding in reasonably heavy rain today for over an hour the system went a bit crazy - for some time I only had 1/4 power, and then I had 1/4 power minimum even with the throttle turned off, then I had no power. Image

I dried out the throttle with a hair dryer - no change

I dried out the controller - no change

I heated the motor - bingo - I think the little breather hole that faces forward might have sucked water in. So if your system goes a bit crazy in cold wet weather you can curse for the rest of your trip but at least you can fix it pretty easily. Once the motor starts to work again you can just run it for a while and the motor will heat up itself and finish drying itself    Image
Techs should always have the power of veto over Engineer Designs

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