Introductions & initial thoughts...

AC, DC, amps, volts and kilowatt. It's all discussed in here
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Marcus
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Introductions & initial thoughts...

Post by Marcus » Tue, 10 Feb 2009, 19:35

Greetings,

Being my first post & all, I figure I should go ahead & introduce myself. I'm a graphic designer from Sydney, and I have to admit that I've become increasingly intrigued, if not obsessed with the notion of doing my own ev conversion. So yeah - by the look of things I've got a lot of learning and research ahead of me!

On that count, reading the threads here has already been damn enlightening!!!

My initial instincts are favouring AC at the moment - 2 motors actually, 1 each for the front & rear wheels respectively, direct to diff / losing the transmission. At face value, this is just a configuration which makes a certain kind of semse to me? Something not dissimilar to this project at metricmind: http://www.metricmind.com/audi/main.htm

(funny - i was thinking of going Audi myself for the donor car, but mostly just on account of how I've always wanted one!)

Now cost being what is it - assuming that the 2 motor proposition is viable, I was hoping to get some feedback on the azure AC24LS or any industrial alternatives?

As well as maybe some feedback on how to bring down costs as much as possible (going with either 1 or two motors) and therefore maybe bring thundersky lithiums into reach!!!

Ideally I'm love to pull off a machine that can do 120+ kmh and has a range of around 150km - i know that asking for a lot but in my experience, reaching for the sky usually makes things possible that never would have been if you'd only settled for what's at your feet.

Meanwhile I'm going to boning up in my knowledge of electrics - and on that count if any of you lot have any suggestions on how best to direct that, I'd really appreciate it. One of these days I'd like to read the more technical threads here without my head hurting!!!


Thanks!


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Richo
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Introductions & initial thoughts...

Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 01:02

Hi Marcus welcome to AEVA Image

I'll post up later today the AC24LS industial eqv for you.
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Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 02:19

Here are the eqv(near):

4kW 4-pole 112frame (224mm dia) 30kg
26.4Nm Nominal
To get 92Nm it needs a torque multiplier of 3.48
Also voltage set to 150V
So would be 10.7kW nominal and 36kW peak.

7.5kW 2-pole 132frame 44kg
25Nm Nominal
To get 92Nm it needs a torque multiplier of 3.68
Also voltage set to 300V
So would be 10kW nominal and 37kW peak.

As you can see the 4kW 4-pole motor is smaller (by 20mm) and lighter (by 10kg) than the AC24LS.
From what I recall a 7.5kW 4-pole was about AUD$1100+GST before the crash.
So I recon you could pick up 2 x 4kW units and rewind them for less than one AC24LS.

Don't forget you would still need 400Vac (near 600V dc) for these motors.
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Post by Marcus » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 04:09

Thanks heaps Richo! Damn helpful information!I especially like the sound of shedding kg with the industrial AC option.

Methinks that this could be a viable proposition! Of course, as you mention the 'fun' part is going to be sorting out the battery side of things!

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Post by EVLearner » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 04:15

Hi Marcus

Welcome to the crazies! Richo has the basics of the engineering in a nutshell and from that point, it is a logistics exercise, and no! I have not cracked the magic formulae yet.

I somehow think that there is a lot more than meets the eye, and you were talking about having a direct drive - well that is well and good - providing that the motor is spining relatively quickly - or you have a gear (torque multiplier) to have the motor spining faster than the wheels! This might restrict your plans for a direct drive Audi, unless you can find a motor that likes to rotate slowly!

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Post by Marcus » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 04:23

damn spanners - why can't they leave my works alone! Image


Kidding!


Well the Audi thing is just wishful thinking, as is maybe the 2 motor direct drive option... but at this point I'm thinking this is a worthwhile goal for my researching & establishing some kind of budget?
Last edited by Marcus on Tue, 10 Feb 2009, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 05:26

It's always best to start somewhere.
Find the advantages and disadvantages then move on to what suits you best.

The motors I suggested above are similar to AC24LS.
However I don't think that 2 of these would be all that great.
The output is about 200Nm 0-4000RPM.
The Audi from Metric Mind had the diff ratios changed to the highest ratio they could get in.
This helped to use up the high RPM of the motors.
But is not really required for industrial AC conversions.

I would think that using 2 x 11kW would be more realistic.
11kW 4-pole 132frame (264mm dia) 60kg
72Nm Nominal
Torque multipler only needs to be 2.5 or better (easy to find)
Voltage set to 200V
So would be 22kW nominal and typically 60kW peak at 400Vac.

Two of them would give:
approx 400Nm 0-3000RPM.
44kW nominal and 120kW peak.

Depending on the diff ratios 3000RPM will be pretty close to 100kph.
With 44kW nominal you could do around 150kph without it breaking a sweat.

Unfortunately now your talking more like AUD$3000+GST ea for the motors.
But since the AC24LS is about USD$2900ea I know what I'd rather buy Image

And your diff ratios could stay the same.

It's much cheaper upfront if you keep the gearbox.
As this basically would half the requirements.


All food for thought Image
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 06:21

Richo wrote: Here are the eqv(near) (to AC24LS):

4kW 4-pole 112frame (224mm dia) 30kg
26.4Nm Nominal
To get 92Nm it needs a torque multiplier of 3.48
Also voltage set to 150V
So would be 10.7kW nominal and 36kW peak.

7.5kW 2-pole 132frame 44kg
25Nm Nominal
To get 92Nm it needs a torque multiplier of 3.68
Also voltage set to 300V
So would be 10kW nominal and 37kW peak.

But don't forget that the AC24LS revs out to some 11,000 RPM, where industrial motors seem to have a limit of 4500 RPM. That's a 2.44:1 difference! I have no idea how they accomplish that.

Other than that, the power and torque output curves seem to be similar to industrial machines, except that industrial machines seem to quote continuous ratings a lot, and the AC24LS publishes maximum torque and power curves.

Also, the AC24LS is water cooled. I'm not sure whether this is such a huge advantage; after all, water doesn't really cool, it just transfers the heat load to a distant radiator, which is air cooled. How this compares to the radiator fins of an industrial motor with decent (external) cooling, I'd love to know.

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 06:39

Richo wrote:So I recon you could pick up 2 x 4kW units and rewind them for less than one AC24LS.

Or order the 220-240v delta option for the 7.5kW motor ("S" instead of "D" in the 13th code position for ABB motors). I imagine the uncommon option might cost a bit more than the default 380-415v model, but surely it would be cheaper, quicker, and easier than rewinding.

For example, instead of ordering
3GAA 132 314-ADE (foot mounted, 400v) and rewinding to 300v, you could order
3GAA 132 314-ASE (foot mounted, 230v) and not bother rewinding.

You'd probably also want option H in position 12 (foot and flange mounting, large flange with clearance holes). So -HSE. The options are in the General Purpose Motors catalogue, not the industrial catalogue, but the industrial catalogue says something like "all the important options are available".

Note: the dash but not the spaces are considered part of the code for column numbering purposes. So the dash is position 11.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 19:23

The limit is the bearings and also rotor balance.
ABB recommends 4500 on some of the motors.
The 4kW would be more like 6000RPM.
But depends on manufacturer and size.

The main sector for ACIM sales would be mining.
The mining industry would be more interested in continuous operation.
eV sales would be almost non-existant.
Hence not marketing it for them and not promoting maximum power/torque.

Umm the data sheet says the AC24LS is air cooled.

ABB motors are really expensive.
You want a custom ABB one then you can wait 20+ weeks for it.
Also you have to use an ABB sales agent.
Speak to ABB they'll refer you back to the local agent.
So no it won't be cheaper, quicker or easier than getting a local off the shelf motor rewound.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 19:41

Richo wrote: Umm the data sheet says the AC24LS is air cooled.
Oops! Image

I must have been thinking Siemens.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 21:03

The controllers are liquid cooled.
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Post by fuzzy-hair-man » Wed, 11 Feb 2009, 21:28

Richo wrote: The controllers are liquid cooled.
They can be either air cooled or liquid cooled Image DMOC445 vrs DMOC445LC (Liquid cooled)

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Post by Marcus » Fri, 13 Feb 2009, 17:42

Well thanks for the input everybody! So it seems that the consensus is that in Aus, Azure is the way to go for AC motors then.

Fair enough. Now I just have to sort out a couple thousand more details, and win the lottery, and I should be good to go! Image

(Seriously tho - how crap is the exchange rate these days!)

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 14 Feb 2009, 17:30

Marcus wrote: (Seriously tho - how crap is the exchange rate these days!)

It was pretty good when I was being paid in US$ Image   Then of course the GFC hit.

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Post by tassie_tiger » Sun, 15 Feb 2009, 02:04

Damn Geelong Football Club, they have a lot to answer for.

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 15 Feb 2009, 07:42

Marcus wrote: So it seems that the consensus is that in Aus, Azure is the way to go for AC motors then.

Well, there is also the option of using standard industrial motors and controllers, as pioneered by Acmotor's Red Suzi. This does lead to very high voltages (500-700v), which are not convenient for Lithium (which requires a BMS per cell).

You may also be able to pick up Siemens equipment second hand, e.g. this Ford EV motor, or new. Brusa also make AC gear. With the strength of the Euro to the AU$, new European equipment is very expensive at present.

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