Got my motor turning today Wahoo

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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sat, 03 Jan 2009, 03:30

After a few busy days, the motor is finally rotating under battery power with the drive shaft (tail shaft) disconnected! Quite a milestone. It is running on variable speed open loop at the moment.


For some reason the motor wont reverse, it just pulses at about 100RPM.
Forward works perfectly.

Whats Next?
In no particular order

Figure out why reverse doesn't work correctly
Install speed pickup for closed loop control
Fit drive shaft
Organise the tray cover from Geoff O'Toole
Permanently wire the charger mains side and relay interlock
Replace small blue emergency off switch with a slightly larger red one
Finish touch up painting and clear coat.
There is bound to be something I have missed.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 03 Jan 2009, 04:02

What connections are you making to the digital inputs for reverse ?

Terminal 19 parameter 303 should be 'reversing' (default)
This should connect to terminal 12 or 13 (+24V) to get reverse.

parameter 200 should be '0-132Hz both directions'

parameter 506 should be 'digital input'

BTW, when you couple it up, take care when playing with settings. I have nearly demolished the garage a few times.
The motor is a lot stronger than the handbrake, at least on the suzi.
Don't press stop/reset on the LCP while driving (this can be disabled par 014) It is rather violent !

Listen for lost sync at higher revs as this will waste power and heat the motor. Adjust torque settings as required.
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woody
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Post by woody » Sat, 03 Jan 2009, 22:22

Hey great news Mal, drop by sometime and I'll give you a few kWh to get home again :-)

Are you still on the axle stands?
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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 00:04

Hi team,
OK, I got reverse going the way I want it - kind of.

For some reason I need to start reversing with the throttle partly pressed or it switches back to standby - very strange. I will re read the manual tonight.

The not reversing at all or at 100rpm is something in the way the forward reverse configuration works. I adapted it to Tuarns way with the help of a diode.

I connected my inductive pickup but unfortunately it looses the plot after about 1500RPM and revs to to max. Even though the pickup is rated at 3kHz and it should max out at 4000rpm x 40 teeth = 2666Hz

Perhaps I need screened cable for it but 3kHz is not high. Any advise on this welcome.

I am using the key to start.

Now, to finish the painting so I can put the front wheels back on and move it :)


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Johny
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Post by Johny » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 17:03

Have you got a CRO to stick on the pickup output? The cable may be responsible if the pickup only has a single ended drive device (transistor) with only a pull up resistor.
Screening is a MUST. You may be getting coupling from the motor output. It'll get into everything.
PS: Well done!
Last edited by Johny on Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 06:04, edited 1 time in total.

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 19:42

Yes, try a scope to see what is going on.

(BTW, did you start from factory defaults then do AMA ?)

Encoder input is 24V industrial low impedance PNP logic and is well aware of noise so unscreened cable is not (likely) to be an issue. (although Danfoss suggest screened as good practice)
Noise would create additional pulses and by logic run motor slower.
Motor runaway would be more realted to loss of pulses.

Check also on encoder loss detection option par.346.
I recall one option was to go to full speed.
Any option other than 'off' could have undesireable results !

Check pickup design for electrical load and requirement for pull up resistor etc.

Note. input impedance of digital inputs on controller is 2kohm.
Level of logic low <5V
Level of logic high >10V

Also check you are using the correct (A or B) pulse input and that the other is disabled. (since controller supports sin/cos direction sensitive quadrature encoders)

Sorry for babling if you know all this already !Image

I did have problems getting my 8 pulse per rotation pickup working however the 4096 pulse encoder worked fine. This may suggest an issue with the PID values or feedback limits. I haven't experimented further.

Any Danfoss techs online ?
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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 21:41

Thanks all for your wisdom.

I will check the pickup with the scope while running in open loop at high RPM (>2000).

The runaway would indicate that the pickup is loosing pulses at high speed.

I have adjusted the pickup for about a 50% duty cycle by eye and it seems to work best there. Will also double check the correct operation of the pickup.

Par 346 is correct.
I did a factory reset and an AMA as soon as I connected the motor.
I am using Enc A and the other is disabled.

Cheers,
Mal.

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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 04:17

First of, The heater works. Luke warm at best, but it does work. :)

Back to the speed pickup.

See Images. (for some reason there is an error when trying to upload to the forum.)

The first image is at 30Hz, the second at 100Hz, It is obviously dropping pulses. I wonder if I was supplied the wrong model.

The modulation seems to be full 24 volts.

Can those on the know take a look at the sensor output to give an opinion before I order another please?

Could the wobbly signal be a concern at 30Hz?

Cheers,
Mal.
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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 04:40

FYI there is a photo of the unpainted drive flange and adjacent inductive pickup here
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Post by Electrocycle » Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 15:42

It might be worth playing around with the sensor to disc clearance.
Inductive pickups seem to be pretty sensitive to position.
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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 16:29

Thanks Andrew. I have the sensor adjusted just right for a 50% duty cycle. If I move the sensor in or out, the sensor looses the plot at lower RPM.

I had a suggestion from Bill in Oregon, US. See Below.

... From your waveforms, it looks like it is missing both the tooth peaks and valleys at 100 Hz. Could there be too much sensor hysteresis for your particular tooth dimensions where deeper cuts in the teeth may help? Or could your gear have strong magnetic lobes that interfere at certain degree points?
... You may find that a Hall type gear-tooth-sensor may work a bit better in this application. A CYGTS99 or similar may work for you. Might even be able to find one similar in an automotive junk yard or your favorite auto parts store...




I wonder if I shave the edges off the teeth it would work better, or even widen the slots. Or I can try a hall effect cam pickup. Does anyone have any experiance to do with the shape of the teeth?
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Post by Johny » Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 17:44

It worries me that moving it closer to the tooth wheel makes it misbehave. That means:
1/ It is sensing the valleys.
or
2/ It is sensing the tooth that has just gone by then the next tooth without "seeing" the valley. The sensor may not have a "tight" enough beam.

Either way it looks like you will have to source a different sensor or maybe look at a shaft encoder option.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 08 Jan 2009, 23:41

Hi Mal. I have been thinking about your inductive sensor issue. If the Danfoss is OK with 20 pulses per rev. my tendency would be to halve the number of teeth on the cog-wheel and deepen the valleys to about 15mm.

My thoughts are that the valleys need to be right outside the sensor range and the teeth need to be about double the sensor width away from each other.
(I am going to use a similar feedback system if yours works out OK so I have a vested interest.)

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Post by Electrocycle » Thu, 08 Jan 2009, 23:50

yeah less teeth and bigger teeth could be the go.

I was thinking about this today and remembered a couple of times I've seen problems with inductive pickups in race car engine ignition systems.

One was on a V8 supercar engine, which would generally work fine, but occasionally at speed would start to lose pulses and the ECU would give an error code. It was very hard to recreate the problem though!

The other one was on a supertourer, where at high load and rpm the sensor would stop working properly. The team tried all sorts of things to get it to work but still had the same problem on the track.

In the end it was cause by slightly worn bearings in the engine letting the crank flex enough to change the sensor disc clearance (fractions of a millimetre!) and start dropping pulses...

That said though, ABS sensors use an inductive pickup with small teeth on the hub and seem to be very reliable. They are mounted extremely rigidly though.
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Post by Johny » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 00:02

The ABS sensors must have a very tight sense aperture. I think a4x4kiwi's is just a standard industrial type more suited to telling you that the lathe slide has reached the end of the bed.

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Post by Electrocycle » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 00:26

ah ok.

I have some ABS sensors kicking around if anyone wants to try them :)
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Post by Johny » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 00:40

Do you know what the configuration of them is? I.e. Open collector output or 12 VDC drive or what power supply etc?
Last edited by Johny on Thu, 08 Jan 2009, 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Electrocycle » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 02:31

they're just a coil and magnet, so you'd need to run them into a signal conditioning circuit of some kind.
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 04:49

Thanks for the ideas guys. I found some advise http://www.koyoele.co.jp/english/suppor ... L_Vol5.pdf on page 24 (26 in PDF) . It is not the same sensor but I would expect the details to be similar.

I have ordered a std range sensor and will try that. If that fails, I will need to reduce the teeth to 20.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 16:52

That's a great source of info. Good find.

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 05:23

Since there are a few people watching this thread, I have another problem to contend with.

I keep getting phase lost and earth leakage trips when starting the motor. After a few restarts, the problem usually goes away until the next day. I have double checked all connections. The motor connections were a little loose but the problem persists. Any ideas? The trip current is 3.5mA for the VFD. I am using 10mm^2 3 core+earth, unsheileded. about 4M long. The motor was mega tested when I bought it and I will borrow one to test again.

I need to figure out where the leakage is sensed.
Last edited by a4x4kiwi on Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 06:23

'Phase loss' is the VFD saying there is high ripple on the DC bus typically caused by loss of one mains phase.
When running off batteries, this DC ripple is not really possible.

-unless the fault is 'motor phase loss' as opposed to main phase loss ?
In which case you need to check motor wiring or question motor integrity.

The other time I have seen this fault is when the DC bus caps are dried out. But you need 100,000 operating hours or so to do that.

Shielded motor cable is best from RFI point of view to the outside world, but will not worry the controller either way.

Earthing of the centre of the batttery pack to the case of the VFD and frame of the motor is a VFD and electrical mains requirement (by way of requiring mains neutral to be earthed). Some people are now suggesting that this can be via a low value (<5k) resistor. I have gone for a hard connection.
Either way you must not place undue stress on motor insulation.

The leakage error is likely to be any motor phase to ground, but if ground is not ground it could be getting erroneous spikes from back EMF / switching or be genuine leakage from stressed motor insulation.

BTW, what voltage mega test ? It needs to be 1000V between phases (star/delata straps removed) and 500V to ground.

Do check the motor is dry inside. I have seen wet / cold / new motors exibit leakage faults that clear once the motor has been warmed up with terminal cover off and any packing around wiring entering motor body removed to allow motor to breath.

I'm just waffling here, you have probably covered all those points. Image
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 06:36

Thanks for the tips.

Its was Motor Phase Loss W the last time, I will check if it is consistently W.

Apart from another mega test, all the points re earthing are covered. Everything is connected to the vehicle chassis.I will leave the cover off the motor while I do other things tomorrow. It shouldn't be damp unless there is condensation inside. The ute is in a carport with the bonnet usually down.
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 06:51

You can also move connection to another (small) motor (any size) just to eliminte anything at controller / batteries as a test.

BTW, does leakage warning happen on light or heavy acceleration ?

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Post by a4x4kiwi » Sat, 10 Jan 2009, 07:12

That had crossed my mind. I will see if there is a spare motor at work.

The warning happens as soon as I press the throttle and the motor tries to start rotating.

update... No load. Motor only. Drive shaft disconnected.
Last edited by a4x4kiwi on Fri, 09 Jan 2009, 20:22, edited 1 time in total.
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