2000w MOTOR KIT - not hub

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eFluffer
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2000w MOTOR KIT - not hub

Post by eFluffer » Tue, 10 Sep 2013, 19:41

My daughter has a mini quad bike she uses quite often.
It has a 150cc 4 stroke motor. Motor stuffed.
She has burn herself on the exhaust and motor heaps of times,
and to tell you the truth, I am over it, Noise, Fuel, Smoke, Smells etc.

I would like to convert this quad/atv to electric.
I thought this would be a great intro project for me into the future of electric powered vehicles. So much to learn.

I have searched Australia and "Ali Baba" and found lots of 800w kits, but no 1500 to 2000w.
Most of the over 800w kits seem to be hub motor driven, or have axles attached. Kits like for the Tricycles, Rickshaws and some 3 wheeled scooters.

I wanted to buy direct from China as they seem to be so cheap.
However hard to find a 1 piece buying situation.

All the motor kits here in Australia, are really expensive, and are only for bicycles, and are only around 200w to 500w.
(As I am a Noobie, not sure if this would work anyway, as the small watt, on the small 50cc quad/ATV, but it is quite heavy)

Reason 1500w to 2000w is I figured that it was was powerful enough. (most Electric Race Quads advertised in China are 2000w to 4000w farm ATV's)
(As I am a Noobie, perhaps you can tell me the cc to watt ratio ?)

So I think, I am after a 1500w to 2000w Motor with Cog (to suit chain), Rear Cog (to suit chain), Chain, Control box, Throttle controller, Power Switch, Lithium Battery, and of course a Charger to suit.
(As Again I am a Noobie, and I gather I will need a 36v, 48v, 60v or 72v. Perhaps you can tell me how much and why ?)

Thanks in Advance smileys/smiley17.gif

I AM IN HILTON, WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
Last edited by eFluffer on Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Tue, 10 Sep 2013, 20:38

ev works in WA
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?pro ... ARS-ME0708

golden motor in China. Click on "BLDC"
http://www.goldenmotor.com/

Kelly controllers - also in China
http://kellycontroller.com/mars-0708ete ... -p-38.html
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Post by antiscab » Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 14:34

that mars with a decent controller would be plenty powerful

I'm pretty sure their bearings are rated for side load (important when using a chain drive)


how far are you planning on riding this quad?
that would determine size of battery

You would start with 16 x headway cells to see how far it goes then go from there.

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Post by eFluffer » Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 19:14

.
Thanks Richo and Matt,

The Golden Motor looks like the go at moment,
as I like that it has a power range from 50W to 20KW.
So I can beef it up as my daughter gets older
and she needs more speed to sustain her addiction and fun level.
However in saying that I don't want her to take off and kill her self.

I think equivalent to 150cc would be enough.
Is there a way to work out CC to Watt ?

ALSO so what sort of Battery power would I need here ?

............

Sorry, I could not see any MARS motor KIT ?

You must remember I am a NOOBIE so my knowledge is very limited.
I really appreciate if you can help me here,
however keep in mine it may have to be explained in layman's terms.

.
Last edited by eFluffer on Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 09:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 21:03

250cc is about 25-30kW
so 150cc is about 15-20kW
But don't forget the max torque is from 0 RPM and generally flat not curved like a petrol motor.

evworks sells the parts separately:
Mars motor
Motor controller
Headway batteries

You'd need around 100 headway cells to get the peak "power".
As Matt says maybe try with a small qty to see how far they will go and give you an idea of how many you want.

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Post by eFluffer » Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 21:46

Thanks for the CC to KW ratio.

Wow ... So here I was thinking 20KW was a lot
and I might have to tame it down for my daughter.
Hence the ... take off and kill her self comment.

But it seems if 150cc is about 15-20kW ... so then it just perfect.

NOW
Let me get my head around the battery power ...
I gathered I would need either 36v, 48v, 60v or 72v.
Perhaps you can tell me how much and why ?

Richo says
"You'd need around 100 Headway Cells to get the peak "power"."
So that's ...
3.2v x 100 = 320 volts, is this not a lot?

.....................................


MARS MOTOR OPTION

Headway Batterys
$18 each x 100 = $1800

Motenergy ME0708 $470

Alltrax AXE4844
DC Motor Controller
24-48V 400A,
Series & PM motors AU$535

               TOTAL $2805

WOW that's a lot and I will still need the bits of ...
Motor Cog (to suit chain), Rear Cog (to suit chain), Chain, Throttle controller, Power Switch, and of course a Charger to suit.

........................................


GOLDEN MOTOR OPTION

Headway Batterys
$18 each x 100 = $1800

Golden Motor HPM10K KIT $???

A Charger to suit. $???...

.
Last edited by eFluffer on Wed, 11 Sep 2013, 12:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 12 Sep 2013, 00:12

The motor controllers usually have a current limit setting.
So you can wind the power back now and slowly increase it later.

The voltage needs to match the windings of the motor for the top speed you want.
So you really need to pick out your motor first and work back.

Not all the batteries are in series.
So for a 48V system you only have 15 in series and either 6 or 7 are in parallel to make up ~100 total batteries.
I only looked at this number at the peak power requirements of a motor/controller.
TBH you may have trouble fitting 100 cells in anyway.

Perhaps look at the space you have in your quad frame and think where the electric motor would go and try to work out how much room you have left for batteries and a controller.

Also you will likely need a battery management system, fuses and a contactor.

If you think this is too much then perhaps Sealed lead acid batteries might be an option.
They are heavier but have a lower initial cost.
Or RC type lipo's. They cost a bit more per cell but you can use less to get the same peak power.
The down side will be reduced range and increase risk of problems-melting/fire.
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Post by antiscab » Thu, 12 Sep 2013, 13:59

Richo wrote: 250cc is about 25-30kW
so 150cc is about 15-20kW


road going 4-cyl motorbike engines make that much power

single cylinder ATV's not so much (although I could well be wrong)

the yamaha scorpio I learnt to ride on was a single pot 12kw@8500rpm - 225cc
my old 1993 suzuki across was a 4 cyl, 37kw @18'500rpm - 250cc

what size engine is on the ATV at the moment?
how much power does it actually make?
that would give you the best answer

Generally you can get away with less EV power than the original IC Engine made, as the power is available lower down in the rev range (generally)

My Vectrix for instance makes 24kw @ 3500rpm
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 12 Sep 2013, 20:35

Yeah it was just a generalisation.
He did say it was a 150cc 4-stroke.
A quick look around suggests more like 6-10kW.

I'd still go with the ME0708 mars type motor from evworks.
The chinese ones aren't much cheaper - probably more after fees, shipping and duties.

So peak power would be more like 15kW from the pack?
That'd bring the cell count down to 60-75 cells. ~$1350
So perhaps about half an hour of drive time at best.
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Post by eFluffer » Sat, 14 Sep 2013, 22:00

I really appreciate the comments so far however ...
the post seems to have got stuck on the cc side, and again I really appreciate it but ...
to refresh the post, and the reason for the post which was to find a CHEAP ... "ELECTRIC MOTOR KIT"
which a noobie could handle as a first project intro to a conversion.
I have the 150cc restricted anyway to half throttle, and my research would suggest a 3 to 5kw would be more than enough.
If I get the 3 tp 5kw, i would be able to maybe able to boost up at a later date once funds become available to a 72v or 96v.

So I am actually now thinking the HPM5000B Fan-Cooling motor, from Golden Motor Company and getting it shipped to WA.
This seems to be a way to go, as I can find anything local (WA) that matches.
They cost about $700 and contain all that is required in the KIT, except the batteries.
I was thinking just buying in WA, ... 4 x 12v GEL or GLASS MAT deep cycle, as that seems to be the cheapest option and I think will give the 48v to run the motor.

The “KITS” to have all that is necessary for full conversions, like the ...
HPM5000B Fan-Cooling BLDC Motor,
Motor Control Box,
Power Brakes.
Power Switch,
Contactor,
Reverse Switch,
USB Programming Cable Set (to PC),
Hall Sensor Connector and Spare Hall Sensor Connector,
Connectors To Battery and Charger Cable,
Throttle.

.................................................

MOTOR SPECIES
Model: HPM5000B -- High Power BLDC Motor
Voltage:48V/72V/96V/120V
Rated Power:3KW-7.5KW
Efficeincy: 91%
Phase Resistance (Milliohm): 6.2/48V; 12.0/72V; 36.0/120V
Phase Induction(100KHZ): 68uH/48V; 154uH/72V; 504uH/120v Speed: 2000-6000rpm (customizable)
Weight:11Kgs Casing: Aluminium
Length (height): 126mm Diameter: 206mm
Features: Compact design,Water resistent, Stainless Steel Shaft, Self Cooling Fan
Applications: Electric car, electric motorcycle, electric tricycle, electric golf carts, fork lift, electric boat, etc.

Image
Last edited by eFluffer on Sat, 14 Sep 2013, 12:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Sun, 15 Sep 2013, 03:45

all of thes guys are listed as selling the hardware from http://www.goldenmotor.com/ and are in WA

Moorilup Energy Research
830 moorilup Road
Kendenup
WA, 6323
AUSTRALIA
Tel: +61 4 1895 0946

Nu Life Sharpening
36 Ainsworth Street
Geraldton WA 6530
AUSTRALIA
Tel: +61 4 2899 8894
Email:kgudel@westnet.com.au

Golden Motor AU.
35 Pasture Place
Gidgegannup. 6083, Perth
AUSTRALIA
Tel: +618418921197

Eco Electric Vehicles
High Wycombe
Perth
AUSTRALIA
Tel: +61 422091131
Website:http://www.ecoev.com.au
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Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 15 Sep 2013, 15:46

A Chinese 150cc quad bike is not going to be 20kw. My guess is it would be more like 6kw - 8kw on a good day!. That's full tilt revving the piss out of it. The torque the 150cc quad produces wont be anything like what a electric motor will produce.

Most of the cheep (ebay style) quads in the 150cc range are under 100kg (around 90ish KG) and have a max speed on a good day with a small rider of 80kmh.

I think that 6-12kw mars motor suggested before from EV works would be a perfect match. Perhaps even a little overkill but it wont be stressed and that's a good thing.

http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?pro ... ARS-ME0708

controller
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=CTL-AXE4834

16 x (40ah ish) prismatic calb cells for 48v would be a good start.

http://www.ev-power.com.au/-Sky-Energy-Batteries-.html

The output cam be easily limited through the controller for slower speeds or longer range and then tweaked down the track if you want to race around and hurt yourself!

It wont be cheep if you want to do a good reliable job of it. If you just want to make the wheels turn and the thing roll along at 20 - 30kmh then sure you can probable do it for under a grand with a cheap dc motor and lead acid. I wouldn't bother.

I had 6kw int a 30kg recumbent trike and that was a widow maker!

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Sun, 15 Sep 2013, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by eFluffer » Sun, 15 Sep 2013, 20:52

I know this is off the track a bit ...
But what about these?

I think this is a single Brush motor
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/71264 ... _bike.html
Hub Motors
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/53647 ... 3000w.html
Last edited by eFluffer on Sun, 15 Sep 2013, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Coulomb Racing » Mon, 16 Sep 2013, 04:14

Hi EFluffer,

You're pretty close to me in Perth, so if you need any help putting your bike together or need any advice feel free to drop me a PM on here.

James
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Post by Richo » Tue, 17 Sep 2013, 20:42

eFluffer wrote:But what about these?
I think this is a single Brush motor
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/71264 ... _bike.html
Hub Motors
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/53647 ... 3000w.html


Shipping costs would be more than your conversion budget.
Still they do say $0-1 / piece Image
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Post by E-Motive » Fri, 20 Sep 2013, 15:55

If you want to see a Golden Motor set up as it arrives then pm me as mine has just rocked up, it all looks very nice.

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Post by eFluffer » Fri, 20 Sep 2013, 16:00

.
Flat out today and all weekend.

Maybe you can post up some pictures?
.
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Post by Bluefang » Tue, 07 Jan 2014, 03:39

Golden motors are not really the greatest or most reliable. Mars motors are as bad as cheap chinese hubs just with a bigger price tag. Either way both above your power needs.

On a mini quad you could easily get enough power for your daughter from a 9C hub motor or similar largeish direct drive hub that will be listed at 500W. They will all over rate quite alot to about 1000W constant(enough to do 50km/h with a 90kg bloke on a mountain bike) and 4kw+ peak if you drill some holes in the right spots(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =2&t=48753). Buy a fixie/bmx cog and either weld it or epoxie it onto the hub. Mount the hub where the engine used to be and run a chain to the rear wheel sprocket, which if i am thinking of the right quads it will also be the right pitch of teeth just abit wider that a strong bmx chain or original chain can be used.

You can probably get a large hub from a local ebike seller that either came with a dud rim or has something wrong that means it cant be used in a wheel for ~$100 delivered. Sprocket and chain from ebay ~$20 and a adapter plate out of 5mm scrap metal plate ~$10 and some time, easy option is to cut the rear of a throw out BMX and weld in place.

Get http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 31&t=18744 controller, ask lyen to program it at the max he thinks it should be. Run it at atleast 48V, depending on how comfortable you are with electricity then 72V is even better. Just gear it down to 20-30km/h and you will have a stump puller. Way more then the mini quad started with.

Batteries depend on your run time, know anyone who is into RC airplanes etc? http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=15376 Easy to use and the best power to weight ratio. Get them in pairs, 2=~10min 4=~20min etc. They are fairly reliant on you having some basic electrical skills, ie red + and black - and to charge them i would start off with something like http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=25873 to start with. You will have to learn abit about parallel and series connections to get it all running simple where your daughter plays, you take the batteries and put them on the balance charger. Make sure you have a battery isolate switch, big red thingy :) and a precharge resistor otherwise it will spark a ton

If you want more info, more power or just explanations on stuff then ask away :)
Last edited by Bluefang on Mon, 06 Jan 2014, 16:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by eFluffer » Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 02:13

Thanks Bluefang,and everyone who helped here ...

But, ... I have given up on this project, as I just could not afford the expense of converting the Quad to electric.
Plus being a noobie it was doing my head in, and could not get my head around some things. I suppose I needed build instructions.
I ended up selling the quad for a $100 as my daughter would not ride anymore after being burnt, and being to smelly and loud.

Reason was I could not find any secondhand or new, motor and or the bits I needed in WA.
I also tried to find someone to build it for me in WA, but that ran into $1000's.

If I did find anything, it was just all to expensive for me, being a single dad and could not justify it.

The worst was the batteries the cost was just to high.

>>>>>>>>>

I ended up buying a second hand 350 watt RAZOR Dirt Quad for $200. Thinking this may be the answer.
See the electric diagram etc. here
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/razordirtquad.html
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/wir ... -v3-10.jpg

I also found a RAZOR Dirt MX350 on the street throw out (but has a 250w motor ??? no idea why)
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/razormx350.html
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/wir ... -v9-10.jpg

Alas my daughter reconds they are both too slow, so she does not use them much.
She has to get off and run next to it, pushing it to get up the slight incline from the rear of my house, to the top of my driveway, so she can ride back down again.
Plus they are a bit small in size as she is quite tall.

I did think of trying to beef up the motor etc, and adding larger wheels or extending the frame, but after the last exercise ... I am not sure can afford the time or money to do this either.

............

So I guess I will keep an eye out for a larger watt motor, larger in size, Electric Quad or Motocross bike
Last edited by eFluffer on Wed, 26 Feb 2014, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by eFluffer » Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 02:34

I guess this would of been better posted in the forum for
Scooters, mopeds and electric toys
Maybe admin can shift?

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Post by Bluefang » Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 04:53

pretty sure that razor quad could take alot more power then just 350W. A fairly safe bet is to upgrade the controller with a cheapy from Ebay 700W should be safe. I would suggest you post on endless-sphere in the "non-hub drive" section and fill out the location info that you are from Perth and you will probably have a few people over there offering to help out. I think one of them in particular used to play with that type of brushed motor and may have some old parts handy to pump it up abit.

Endless-sphere is probably the biggest forum for your sized project
www.facebook.com/ausemoto
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Post by Richo » Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 20:52

eFluffer wrote: Reason was I could not find any secondhand or new, motor and or the bits I needed in WA.
I also tried to find someone to build it for me in WA, but that ran into $1000's.

If I did find anything, it was just all to expensive for me, being a single dad and could not justify it.

The worst was the batteries the cost was just to high.


Batteries cost lots.
There is no real way around that.

However I'm sure there would have been Perth AEVA Members that could have helped you build it.
You would only need to ask.

Planning is the most important bit and allowing for unforseen issues that cost extra.

Let us know when you want to try again.
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Post by eFluffer » Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 21:50

.
Can't try again ... no quad ... sold it.

Maybe be interested in beefing up
the RAZOR's at some point.

Some one suggested be better to post on endless-sphere
Last edited by eFluffer on Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 10:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Coulomb Racing » Thu, 27 Feb 2014, 22:20

Efluffler, if you can provide me with some desired specifications, such as range, top speed, weight and acceleration I would be happy to help you build a cheap solution.

Regards,

James Hill,
Coulomb Motorsport
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Post by Chrustie » Mon, 11 Apr 2016, 20:17

Hi I am new on this site, but I've built a few electric vehicles, mostly lightweight, long distance trikes and bikes.

15 - 20 kw would be a suicide attempt for your daughter - you are looking at no more than 2 kw for that kind of vehicle. That's 2000w. 1000w would be enough for a transport / fun vehicle. Have a look at the kids range of evs. If you can keep it low, and at 36V, you can buy a 20a/h lithium battery pack x 2 for about $1000 assembled and ready to use from Daniel Pereira (I buy my stuff from him and it's cheaper than imports and he is honest and reliable) and you can stick to bike type motors or get a small Golf Cart motor for about $400 to $600. Controllers and throttles for about $100 for a brushless motor set. Look on eBay, etc.

If you use a cheap transmission (I used a ride-on mower three speed in one of my contraptions for 15 years) you can get that for $100 second hand and will last a long time. They are designed to handle about 12 hp. With a 3 speed box the little tractor I built would pull a 200kg load of firewood nin second gear or reach 25km per hour up a slight incline in top. That was with a 150cc side valve briggs motor. With a 1000w watt e-motor it does just as well. The gears are the secret.

Anyway, you've probably finished the conversion by now. Like to know how you went. I'm going to do one myself soon. I have a 250cc Farm quad which is noisy and thirsty, and very unreliable.
Chrustie

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