Wheel Motors

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Noticeably FAT
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Wheel Motors

Post by Noticeably FAT » Mon, 07 Apr 2008, 08:46

Greetings

Has anyone had any experience with wheel motors/ in wheel/ hub motors?

I was looking at using TM4's or PML Flightlink Hi-Pa Drive™'s because of their greater efficiency and space savings, given I wish to convert a Mazda MX-5!

Cheers

http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html

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Post by Benonymous » Mon, 07 Apr 2008, 19:09

have you obtained any prices for these motors? I have e-mailed a canadian company about their wheel motors and they have not responded. I find that most of these guys don't want to sell to individual constructors, which is pretty stupid. We're the guys who are going to get their products in the public eye.

'm in two minds about wheel mounted motors actually. I really think that suspension design and dynamics will be an uphill battle with an extra 20Kg hanging off the hub,

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Post by zeva » Mon, 07 Apr 2008, 19:37

Car sized hub motors are are all REALLY expensive, mark my word! They're still bleeding-edge tech, so you pay a huge premium. Plus, as Benonymous suggests, I'm skeptical about the performance hit carrying an extra 20kg of sprung mass on each wheel..

Right now (in my opinion) the best way to go is one motor per driving wheel, but mounted on the chassis and driven through the existing CV joints.

PS: Great choice of donor car Image
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Benonymous
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Post by Benonymous » Mon, 07 Apr 2008, 19:45

Just read the spec on the PML motors and e-mailed them for a price. They claim that with the wheel-motor fitted there are only 2 extra Kg due to the fact that the hub/disc/caliper are removed from the equation. I wonder how the RTA would feel about a car with no brakes! I can just see a builder trying to explain regen to the inspector. I agree with Ian too, I'd be more inclined to hook up two motors to the existing CV's and leave the brakes on. I'll post the response from PML Flightlink if they can be f@gged writing back. Image

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Post by Benonymous » Tue, 08 Apr 2008, 15:15

Here's the response from Simon Peaty at PMC Flightlink,

Dear Ben,



Many thanks for your interest in our Hi-Pa drive range of products. Currently the Hi-Pa drive is not commercially available as we are in the process of completing final development prior to bringing the technology to the mass production stage.



We are working with some of the world’s most prestigious car manufacturers and our target is to have

the Hi-Pa drive product available in car manufacturer’s showrooms in the next 12-18 months. We are aiming to make the product available for retro-fit kits and new applications sometime after this.



More details will be made available through our website and through the press in due course. We have logged you e-mail address in our database and will contact you as soon as the product is available.



Sorry for the impersonal response, however we currently have more requests for quotation and questions than we can reply to individually at present. We hope to change this in the future.



Kind regards,

Simon Peaty.

I'd be surprised if there are any retail sales in the forseeable future. As I postulated earlier, these guys are after big deals, not fiddling about with backyard constructors. The funny hing is that the tech in this motor is nothing special. There have been few real advances in electric motor design in the past eighty years or so. Electrical theory is so thoroughly understood.

I'm truly surprised that nobody in Australia is making a high efficiency motor like the CSIRO wheel motor. These currently run $11,000 each. I have seen the internals of one and beleive me there's no unobtanium in them. The materials are readily available and relatively inexpensive. While the design of the CSIRO motor is probably patented, the Halbach array that makes it so efficient and the Litz wire could both be applied to a new design.

If the response from PML is anything to go by, there IS a market out there.
Last edited by Benonymous on Tue, 08 Apr 2008, 05:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by AgentSpanky » Tue, 15 Apr 2008, 23:15

Hi All,

According to the Australian distributor http://www.bylongind.com.au/:

The HPD30's are around $25,000 each
The HPD40's are around $32,000 each

Here's the data:


                 HPD40        HPD35        HPD30
Torque (max)     750Nm        500Nm        350Nm
Speed (max)      2000rpm      2000rpm      2000rpm
Power (max)      120kW        80kW        40kW
Mass             25kg        21kg        18kg


I also have to say I'm highly dubious about the claims of the mini on PML's front page.
  • 1000km distance
  • 240 km/h top speed
when the battery pack only has 21kWh of energy.

Anyway.. cheers

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Post by Benonymous » Thu, 24 Apr 2008, 17:09

What thoroughly ridiculous prices. How could a manufacturer even bear that cost to construct a vehicle???? And that Mini has 4 of them so that would mean minimum that the installation would cost $100K before you've bought batteries or ancillaries. Crazy. BTW the installation on that Mini wouldn't be able to be registered in Aus, have you seen the offset on the wheels? The suspension and steering geometry would be shot to hell as well!

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Post by ReVolt » Tue, 03 Jun 2008, 03:38

Wow! $32,000 for an electric motor? What would the discount be if we bought in bulk - say 2 of them?

Cheers
Sir ReVolt

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juk
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Post by juk » Tue, 03 Jun 2008, 07:41

AgentSpanky wrote: I also have to say I'm highly dubious about the claims of the mini on PML's front page.
  • 1000km distance
  • 240 km/h top speed
when the battery pack only has 21kWh of energy.

Anyway.. cheers


The QED Mini had a range extender in it as well as the battery pack. Think GM Volt or Fisker Karma.

Also i think the PML motors are a great thing. I mean, what else are you going to use if you're going to make a Tesla roadster into an all wheel drive? And realistically that's the only way to get the 0-100 time down to an even 3 seconds, or possibly pushing 2's.



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Post by fallingbear » Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 05:12

hey yall,
i am new here, but i was just reading about a bloke in the us who used surplus jet engine starter motor, to run his car?
but i am having truble sourcing a 12v dc motor of about 300a?
I do not wish to go completely ev, but rather use both gas elec?
any help or ideas thanked for already.
cheers
fbear
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Post by antiscab » Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 09:44

going hybrid is a challenge indeed, with limited returns.
you will need to start out with a vehicle that is either already a hybrid, or has a significant payload capacity, as the only drivetrain heavier than a pure electric is a hybrid one.

what type of car are you considering?

re the jet engine starter motors, they are horrifically inefficient, and not that easy to come by anyway.

Matt

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Post by AgentSpanky » Wed, 30 Jul 2008, 15:28

Further to my comment about the Lightening with the wheel motors, an article published today on
GoAuto News.
In the article:

The Lightning’s Hi-Pa Drive, invented by UK company PML Flightlink Ltd, integrates its electric motor and drive electronics into one unit and is claimed to produce up to 20 times greater power density than conventional electric drive systems.

“The compact, energy-efficient, electric wheel motors produce unrivalled levels of torque with internal heavy-duty tapered roller bearings that can withstand heavy radial loads for robust use,” says Lightning. “Yet they achieve the power to weight ratio important for the performance sports car capability of the Lightning.”

The Hi-Pa Drive system was employed in Volvo’s ReCharge concept that debuted at the 2007 Frankfurt motor show and is said to be fully weather-proof and features several levels of redundancy, “so any single failure will not prevent the vehicle from operating safely”.

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 30 Jul 2008, 17:44

Yep, the EV future is looking good.

There is still a large degree of notyetmadium for public consumption involved but anyway it is about as unobtainium as a Bugatti for me.
I really like the idea of wheel motors coming of age.
Do they state a continuous kW rating as well as peak ?

What is it with this 10 minute recharge bit ??? Total stupidium.
Has anyone done the sums ?
The battery pack in this vehicle would be over 100kWh (if they are not telling lies about the performance) so a recharge in 1/6 of an hour would require a power source of 600kW+ rating.
A 15 A power point can deliver 3.6kW so forget it. You will have to go to a "SERVICE STATION" and stand well clear while the wiring in the EV has to cope with 1000 Amps at 600V. Show me the BMS to cope with that too ! Be more patient, make it 15 minutes Image
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Post by Samo » Thu, 31 Jul 2008, 01:17

There are quite a few hub motors on the china sites... 4 x 5000w could be an option. 4 wheel regen would be nice!

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/s ... Motor.html

Samo

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Post by ReVolt » Thu, 31 Jul 2008, 04:51

Hi AgentSpanky,

The Hi-Pa drive was not invented by PML as Ferdinand Porsch demonstrated that at the World Trade Fair in 1900 (or might have been 1901) He had 2 in wheel electric motors powered by a mounted generator (another idea that has resurfaced in PML).

They sound great, IP65 rated, embedded controller etc and have some wild, out there claims, but no independent reviews show up, also they are not interested in us helping to drive the technology from a groundswell aspect, they're interested in big fish like Volvo. For a conversion, its probable your entire wheel mechanical support system and steering will need to be re-engineered in order to cope with the extra weight of each motor and to pass inspection. If there is a competitor to PML's in-wheel drives that are also IP65 rated, I would like to know of them.
Cheers
Peter

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Post by ReVolt » Thu, 31 Jul 2008, 05:21

Hi ACMotor,

> What is it with this 10 minute recharge bit ??? Total stupidium.
> Has anyone done the sums ?

Some of the high-end conversions have incorporated large Capacitors (around 5F each) which can charge and discharge much faster than batteries. Its possible to drive and make tyres smoke just off the capacitors alone. My understanding is (and if anyone sees need to correct me I'm welcoming that), that once the capacitors are charged, or even partly charged, they can feed this charge to the batteries, faster than the main charger can, and so the whole charging process is sped up.

If there were 2 Capacitor banks, then once the 1st one has reached say 20% charge, the controller could switch the mains charger across to charge the 2nd bank, while the 1st unit discharges into the batteries. When the 1st bank is depleted, the controller can switch back to charge the 1st unit while the 2nd assumes the role of charging the batteries.   This is repeated until both capacitor banks are full, as they can be charged faster than batteries, at which point the mains charger takes over the role of charging the batteries directly, while the capacitors fully charged can power the car a fair way (depending on size) regardless of the state of the batteries.

Another advantage of capacitor banks, is they are able to fully take advantage of regenerative braking, as they can receive the full current discharge very quickly, whereas batteries can't really cope with such a fast charge and what they can't absorb gets wasted.

Is that how others understand it?
Cheers
Peter

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Post by antiscab » Thu, 31 Jul 2008, 06:20

ok, a few things need to be clarified.

The Lithium Titanate batteries they claim to be using can be recharged in 10 mins IF you have a large enough power source.

If the primary source is the mains, then your intermediate source should be another battery. Capacitors simply cant store the energy needed.
Since the intermediate pack is immobile, ud just use flooded lead acid.
5 F even at 600v is only 0.5kwh, and is physically huge and spectacularly expensive (as in doesnt fit in a car)

For regen, the batteries (lithium titanate) can absorb more power than the controller can recover from regen (400kw+, remembering were talking about a 100kwh pack here).

You would only use capacitors for regen if your batteries arent capable of absorbing the regen charge fast enough. If you are using good AGM lead acids you dont need this. If you are using a big enough thundersky LiFePO4 pack you dont need this. If you are using a high rate Lithium pack you definately dont need this.


Matt


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Post by acmotor » Thu, 31 Jul 2008, 06:57

Peter, don't get me wrong. I have said elsewhere that utracaps may well replace chemical batteries completely.(one day)
Utracaps can form part of an EV system at present, but Matt is right, not much of a part given the utracaps available at the moment.

But ultracaps don't solve the 10 minute recharge stupidium.
IF you get caps big enough to hold 100kWh it is still a major issue to shift that 100kWh in 10 minutes. That is the bottom line.
1000A continuous at 600V for 10 minutes. Not even welding cable can do that, let alone the intricate wiring inside an ultracap.

10 minutes is still 10 minutes at 600kW regardless of the battery / capacitor system.
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Post by AgentSpanky » Tue, 27 Jan 2009, 17:48

Hi All,

I know this is an old thread, but I just noticed that at the bottom of PML flightlinks's website there is a note: "PML Flightlink Limited - in Administration"

So - they appear to be backrupt..

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Post by bga » Wed, 28 Jan 2009, 02:10

The problem with most of the hub motor 'makers' is that they don't have any customers.
e-traction seems the be the exception. They have a sensible niche in buses with a plausible business case.
Last edited by bga on Sun, 15 Feb 2009, 09:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 28 Jan 2009, 17:26

Funny thing about wheel motors. When I run spreadsheets over any reasonable direct drive system and add transmission losses, they really are not nearly as important as CD, weight and frontal area. I agree it's yet another optimisation - but the cost and suspension entanglements - is it really worth it, even for mass produced?
Wouldn't you love to drive through 30cm of flooded road in a car with wheel motors - will this be the day the front left wiring grommet cracks...
The exception is dirty great big machines where this method of torque transfer works very well.

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Post by bga » Thu, 29 Jan 2009, 02:39

I agree.

Light weight and a slippery shape go a long way to good efficiency.

Dirty great machines... The really big ones already have hub motors or equivalent. (thinks locomotives, electric passenger trains and 200 tonne dump trucks)

We shouldn't bury the CV joint yet:
There is a neat coupling that was featured on the New Inventers a couple of years ago. The 'Thompson Coupling' is a compound double universal CV joint that has very good efficiency in angled drive applications and can support large axial and radial loads.

Either that or a swing arm with the motor mounted near the body end pivot with gearing by a belt drive. (Big american motor cycles?)

My read on drives a while ago indicated that transverse FF vehicles are more efficient because the there's no right angled hypoid (diff) in the system. Handy, since FF config is now a lot more common than FR. Now just to jam a decent sized Induction motor in without hitting the frame rails.

Cheers
BGA
   

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Post by Thalass » Thu, 29 Jan 2009, 07:07

Good to see Thompson are still in business! I saw that episode of new inventors. It's an interesting concept. Even got some interest in the subaru circles I frequent - CV joints don't like it when you lift the car up too far, but these things shouldn't have any trouble.
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

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Post by EVLearner » Sun, 15 Feb 2009, 05:57

Hi Benonymous

While at the Green (Gasoline) Car Innovation Fund (Fraud) meeting in Sydney a few weeks ago, I spoke with a lady from Gosford who said she was developing a magnetically efficient wheel/hub motor.

She avoided the technical details as they were obviously confidential, but I had the distinct feeling that she and her team were in the research stage, so there would be a year or two before development and then another year in Proof of Concept before small scale production would kick in, so there is hope yet.

In hindsight, I seem to remember something about this topic in the very early 1980s at UTS, using high power magnets and disk motors. Who knows, she just might be re-inventing the magnetic wheel !!

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Post by bga » Sun, 15 Feb 2009, 20:37

For and against wheel motors.

I was looking at the Hino hybrid truck. They retain the gearbox and let the driver shift gears. This makes sense for a heavy vehicle since the drive torque and gearbox ratio range are large.

My thought is that, when the range of operation is considered, the hub drive would also need suitable variable gearing or become very heavy (and bulky) to accomodate the worst case torque needs.

Motor cars have less range in the drive system, making then more suitable for a simpler single ratio hub drive. The Michelin concept is probably in the correct territory because it uses a reduction gear to minimise the size and weight of the motor component.


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