ATV Quad

AC, DC, amps, volts and kilowatt. It's all discussed in here
Kyphonii
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Post by Kyphonii » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 01:08

The project requirement is for two vehicles to be used and they have travel sections that are 10 to 20 klm. Would be a advantage not to be missed.
What motor type is best suited to regeneration ?

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jonescg
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Post by jonescg » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 03:19

AC all the way.

Brushless DC motors are just AC motors with a particular feedback system (Hall effect sensors). You probably won't get an induction motor of that size to work, but plenty of BLDC motors are around.

I think 3 kWh might be enough for your needs too.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 20:21

Kyphonii wrote:

Opinion on these spec's ?

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENCARS ... d-bike.htm
Yeah you're right it is ordinary.
1.5kW that's less than a 50cc equivalent.
I would probably ignore this as a comparison to what you're after.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 20:33

Kyphonii wrote: The eco charger quad:
15kw DC permanent magnet.
AGM battery 110AH
25 amp charger.
400kg Kerb weight
range 24km to 40km.


I am under the impression the eco charger quads are 72V.
Now as a rough guide you can only get 65% out of a lead battery.
So the usable capacity is 5148Wh for a range of 25-40km
OR 125-205Wh/km.

Taking the worst case in lithium with 80% DOD this is a pack size of 6.4kWh.

jonescg wrote:I think 3 kWh might be enough for your needs too.


No I think your original estimate of 6kWh is spot on.
I only used 3kWh as an example as I had no idea.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 20:40

Kyphonii wrote: So what would happen if I was to tow a quad for several kilometres with the charge back system?
Would the system handle prolonged battery charging by this method.


Well that really comes down to the controller.
All possible.

TBH you're probably better off putting a small genset on it.
AND now you have a hybrid.
1.25kW would either charge in ~4hrs or get you running speed back home.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 20:51

http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/motors/ ... e1507.html
http://ev-power.com.au/webstore/sevcon/ ... 4-80v.html

Going 10 leaf modules in series would give:
76V 60Ah 4560Wh or usable ~3.6kWh.
This is ~20-30km range.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 22 Jun 2017, 20:54

jonescg wrote:I think 3 kWh might be enough for your needs too.

Richo wrote:No I think your original estimate of 6kWh is spot on.
I only used 3kWh as an example as I had no idea.

Kyphonii wrote: travel sections that are 10 to 20 km.


Ah actually 3kWh is ok... Image
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 23 Jun 2017, 20:48

https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm

Another option is the Golden motor 10kW water cooled with controller.
72V would be ~AUD$2,200 + shipping
96V would be ~AUD$2,400 + shipping

As before:
76V 60Ah 4560Wh or usable ~3.6kWh ~20-30km range.
and 98V 60Ah 4560Wh or usable ~4.7kWh. ~25-40km range.

A 48V60Ah system would give about 10-15km range.
Which is no room for loss of capacity over time and doesn't meet your 20km range requirement.

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jonescg
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Post by jonescg » Fri, 23 Jun 2017, 21:28

My 4 kW scooter manages 55 Wh/km, so the ~3 kWh battery gets me about 55 km range at 70 km/h.

I would imagine with a fairly efficient differential and drivetrain you should be able to manage a similar sort of efficiency with an ATV.

Happy to offer up my battery building services but I'm not cheap - the pack ends up being $1150/kWh before any enclosure or BMS.
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Post by Kyphonii » Sun, 25 Jun 2017, 13:08

How do the various Battery setup rate KWh / kg ?



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jonescg
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Post by jonescg » Sun, 25 Jun 2017, 17:45

Kyphonii wrote: How do the various Battery setup rate KWh / kg ?


The high power cells I have been using are 158 wh/kg at the cell level, and they are good for 20 C continuous (not likely to be something you will encounter)

I have been testing some other cells which are a 2C continuous, 5C peak which are about 200 Wh/kg.

By comparison Headways are about 110 Wh/kg and prismatic LiFePO4 is about 100 Wh/kg.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Mon, 26 Jun 2017, 20:42

jonescg wrote: My 4 kW scooter manages 55 Wh/km.
I would imagine with a fairly efficient differential and drivetrain you should be able to manage a similar sort of efficiency with an ATV.


And unless you exclusively ride your scooter off road and through tough terrain I doubt it's a fair comparison.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Mon, 26 Jun 2017, 20:45

Leaf modules are about 130Wh/kg.
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Richo
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Post by Richo » Mon, 26 Jun 2017, 20:55

Kyphonii wrote: The eco charger quad:
400kg Kerb weight
range 24km to 40km.

Richo wrote: So the usable capacity is 5148Wh for a range of 25-40km
OR 125-205Wh/km.


The range was based on a 400kg lead sled.
Changing to lithium will improve the range.
Perhaps 100-150Wh/km...
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jonescg
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Post by jonescg » Mon, 26 Jun 2017, 21:02

Richo wrote:
jonescg wrote: My 4 kW scooter manages 55 Wh/km.
I would imagine with a fairly efficient differential and drivetrain you should be able to manage a similar sort of efficiency with an ATV.


And unless you exclusively ride your scooter off road and through tough terrain I doubt it's a fair comparison.


I disagree - that figure, 55 Wh/km is at a constant 70 km/h. It works out to about 80 amps at 50 volts. On an ATV the speeds are much lower than this, so there's no aero drag to contend with. On the other hand, the drive train will be a source of power losses, and the terrain will probably offer up more friction, so perhaps it's about the same in the end. I reckon it would be pretty close.

If it's for tourists and inexperienced riders, the tracks will probably be fairly tame.
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Post by mikedufty » Mon, 26 Jun 2017, 23:41

He said it was for work access, so presumably to areas a 4WD can't get to, so I wouldn't assume the tracks are tame.

Kyphonii
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Post by Kyphonii » Tue, 27 Jun 2017, 00:29

The access is rough track accessible by your average Hilux.
The electric is so we can get in to the specific project sites with as little disturbance as possible.
And I just don't like noise in that environment.
National Parks frown on you making new tracks.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Tue, 27 Jun 2017, 20:40

jonescg wrote: I disagree - that figure, 55 Wh/km is at a constant 70 km/h.


Yes we all disagree Image

The eco charger quad which is the basis of my comparison only has a top speed of 50-55kph.
It would be hard to disagree with the specs of a nearly identical existing product.
I don't see an electric quad dropping HALF it's consumption based on your scooting experience.

Unfortunately my armchair doesn't come with 4 wheels to prove otherwise. Image

So until someone build it...

Perhaps you can carry around a 100kg back pack, put phat knobbly tyres on your scooter and ride off road for a week.

I doubt it would change the way this ATV gets built anyway.
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