QLD Branch

Fo those who are not local to a branch, or looking at starting one
Morbo
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Post by Morbo » Sun, 30 Mar 2008, 20:32

G'day Everyone

I'm new to these forums but I've been dreaming of an electric car for years now. Unfortunately I'm no engineer and no millionaire. However I've noticed that there is no QLD branch of the AEVA.

I just wanted to put the call out to all the QLD members who might be interested in starting up an official AEVA branch.

If there is a significant amount of interest it might be worthwhile.

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jonhunter
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Post by jonhunter » Thu, 19 Jun 2008, 19:15

I am in the same boat...dreaming of an electric car.

I am considering doing a conversion but would like to get more information before taking the plunge. I am no mechanic but have some experience with working on cars. If I could find a bolt in kit I would most likely take that route. It would be good to meet other people who are interested in building an ev conversion and perhaps build one side by side to share our experience, knowledge, parts, ideas, suppliers etc.


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PaulGellatly
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Post by PaulGellatly » Wed, 25 Jun 2008, 00:02

Hello there

I have just registered on this web site, so its all new to me.
I am keen to find out all about how to convert a car to electric.
I want to do it with a VS Commodore Ute, because I want to see it done in a rear wheel drive, larger vehicle, rather these tiny little shoe boxes that are usually converted. I am interested in using a 3-phase AC motor, and LiFEPo batteries, so I'm expecting at least a $25,000 cost.

I programme Programmable Logic Controllers, PLC's, for a job, so I'm fairly electrical minded. I'm also a member of the Alternative Energy Association, here in Brisbane.

I'm ken to start some correspondence with members of the AEVA, to learn what is involved to accomplish my ideas, and poke my finger up at the oil companies.

Regards
Paul Gellatly

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Hatchet
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Post by Hatchet » Wed, 25 Jun 2008, 19:10

Gidday back at ya! I am also new and am looking at a Ford Courier xtracab using flooded cells and 144V DC motor. Just in the research stages but getting close. I may live near you Paul, I'm in Logan Central.

Brett Bishop (Hatchet)

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PaulGellatly
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Post by PaulGellatly » Wed, 25 Jun 2008, 19:35

Gidday Brett

I have decided on the AC 3-phase way, because it has more power and apparently is more efficient. I am waiting on prices from Blade Electric Vehicles in Melbourne for the following configuration:
55kW 3-phase AC Electric Motor plus Controller
Includes regenerative braking for some recharging back into the batteries.
Batteries will be Lithium Iron Phosphate, expensive but from my research they will end up being cheaper in the long run. I'm looking at 100 of them weighing 560kg for the 160Ah ones, or 600kg for the 200Ah ones. They come from Thunder Sky (China). They say they can do up to 3000 charges, but the life of any battery is very dependant on how far you pull them down each day. I'm wanting to go down only 20%, ie 80% left, each day, and they reckon they'll last up to 7 years. With Lead Acid, you may only get two years if you draw them down to say 50% each day. I will have a DC Bus Voltage of 320vDC going into the Inverter, so I'm real worried about having the circuits physically protected.

If you are interested in the pricing that I get for the AC way, let me know and I'll send you the numbers.

Have you joined to AEVA yet? I'm keen to, but I want to find out whether they plan to start a Qld branch, before I sign up to the Sydney branch.

Paul Gellatly

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Hatchet
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Post by Hatchet » Wed, 25 Jun 2008, 19:50

Only looked at the AC setup briefly. Please send me details. 55kw!!! Most are about 30kw........going for power huh. Think you will find LiFePo4 will be expensive. 320v/3.2v=100cells 100x160Ahx$2.40=$38400?
If you want to, you can email me and set up a phone/meet session. I want to know more on AC. I'm about to join AEVA I don't think it matters too much about which branch?

Brett

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Post by Hatchet » Wed, 25 Jun 2008, 19:51

Forgot, my email is brett.bishop@iinet.net.au

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 26 Jun 2008, 07:46

Hi Guys,

Paul I see your interested in the AC systems.
Pls post up prices and details if you find out about the Blade systems.
Also I doubt you will need the 160Ah battery though.
Remember a typical car would only consume 150Wh/km@80km/hr.
So 100*3.2V*160Ah=51200Wh.
With 80%DOD this is 40960Wh.
40960Wh/160Whkmph = 256km.

Do you really travel 256km in a day?

Also I wouldn't recommend that you setup you pack for 20%DOD.
1. That is a really high price for a pack you wont use.
2. Thats a lot of extra weight to carry around that you wont use.
3. Although the life is still unknown yet don't expect to get more than 7 years. So why pay for another 80% you wont use.

You could physically protect the High voltage DC Bus by double insulation. Just remeber that for it to be road legal it needs to be orange cable and over certain distances where is is open it must be placed in a tube/pipe etc for protection.

Also the system used in the Getz is suited for the getz.
Can you imagine pulling the petrol engine out of the getz and putting it in your commodore?
It would be modest performance at best.

I would suggest you look at the industial 3-phase motors around 15-18kW 4pole. Assuming you are keeping the gearbox.
These should give you similar torque specs as a stock commodore.
Also it will keep the costs around/under the $25 mark.


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PaulGellatly
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Post by PaulGellatly » Thu, 26 Jun 2008, 22:45

Thanks for your comments Richo

I am still waiting on pricing from Blade EV. I thik you are probably right about the 160Ah batteries. I'll see what prices I get then price a smaller set.

The Blade Getz has a 40kW 3-phase motor. I suspect it is quite different to a normal industrial 3-phase motor, because the 55kW one is only 109kg weight, but a Baldor 55kW weighs 535kg. Could it be aluminium windings instead of copper?

I'll let you know pricinh when I get it.

Regards
Paul Gellatly

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Fri, 27 Jun 2008, 03:22

TS lithium is around USD$2.00/Ah.
The smaller ones and bigger ones cost a bit more but not by much.

Try not to compare kW for motors as it can be a bit misleading.
It is not really a direct comparison as to the performance you will get.
It is better to look at the Torque specification of the car.
Then look at the torque of the electric motors.
A 55kW baldor motor will probably rip you commodore in half, strip every tooth in your gearbox and melt the diff.
I assure you a 15-18kW motor would get you leaping off the line.

Like I said before the Blade motor in the Getz is going to suit the performance for a Getz. I serioulsy doubt that it would be good enough for your commodore.
Get the price anyway and if you can some form of technical document.
eg current v Torque, Rpm v torque.

The difference is likely to be the RPM of the motor as Power is a product of torque and RPM.

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PaulGellatly
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Post by PaulGellatly » Sat, 28 Jun 2008, 18:32

Gidday Richo

Thanks again for your wise comments.

The motor that I am thinking of using is made by Azure Dynamics. See this site:

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/f ... ollers.htm

Look for the AC55, there are Torque/Speed curves on there.

The 3.8L V6 motor that I want to replace, has the following Torque Specs:
1000rpm 37Kw 271N/m
2000rpm 48Kw 312N/m
3000rpm 82Kw 353N/m

The AC55 Azure Dynamics motor has the following specs:
1000rpm 29Kw 280N/m
2000rpm 58Kw 280N/m
3000rpm 37Kw 125N/m
I think the graph was drawn with the motor pulling 400amps.
If this is true, would it mean that the battery pack max amps capacity would actually be a limiting factor?
I am still keen on the 90AH LiFePo4 batteries from Thunder Sky, and I think they are capable of 270amps continuous but would be able to suply 400amps for short periods. (Could be $20,000 worth though).

My thinking is that the info I have shown above indicates that the AC55 motor would be a very close fit for the V6, at least up to 2000rpm. At 2000rpm my speedo is reading 100kph, so that is exactly what I want the top end to be.

Still wanting on LiFePo4 quotes from 3 different sources, bloody slack these companies.

Regards
Paul Gellatly

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Post by TropicalEV » Sat, 23 Aug 2008, 22:43

Richo wrote:

A 55kW baldor motor will probably rip you commodore in half, strip every tooth in your gearbox and melt the diff.
I assure you a 15-18kW motor would get you leaping off the line.

.
Image Image Image

Hi Guys,
       I'm a newbie just recently joining the revolution. I'm keen to convert a roadbike, something big with full fairing to hide the workings. ( no reason it can't look good too) I want to make it perform well to prove that it is possible to have an EV without the reduction in testosterone! LOL. (There are a LOT of red-necks around here. Some of them my mates lol) In the past I have been self employed in the renewable energy field and like nothing better than proving the "Nay-sayers" wrong.
I was a bit bewildered by the above post on KW comparisons. I thought KWs were KWs!?? Am I doing my sums wrong?? Can I do with that much less power and still be comparable? If so It could save me a heap of money and weight! Any clarification would be appreciated...Thanks Ken

PS: Image Bravo guys for an excelent site with informative and helpful members.
" I haven't failed..I've just found 10,000 ways that it doesn't work" Thomas Edison while inventing the lightbulb

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Post by antiscab » Sun, 24 Aug 2008, 07:59

gday tropicalev,

yes a kw is a kw,
but the different torque curves make comparisons a little more complicated.
since we (as in the ev crowd) are usuall more battery limited in the way of power, a kw peak from a electric motor is worth more than a kw peak from a ICE motor, as the peak on an electric motor is more of a plateau.
also the more powerful EVS dont have gearboxes to waste power, so power at motor is closer to power at wheels.

nowadays we are getting more powerful batteries which means they can be directly compared.

its very hard to do a sports bike EV. reason being a sports bike is already pushed to the limits of what an ICE can do.
from a performance POV, this is still far above what an EV can do.

it is possible to get 70kw or so to match a 600cc sport bike at the wheels.
you will, however, need high power cells (think k2 26650s lots of them in series/parrallel, think 20px45s=315cells=80kg), and your range will be short (60km or less).

of course if you already use a 600cc sports bike (say a current model kawasaki ninja zo6) and run it at 12000rpm continuously, the first 30 or so km will be of very similar performance.

Matt
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Post by TropicalEV » Sun, 24 Aug 2008, 17:06

Thanks for that Matt,
                    that makes perfect sense. As for sports bike performance one bike I was considering using was a VF1000.(Full frame means easy conversion) It had 116HP new. In all honesty how many riders use ALL that power? I had a 750 version of this bike and I rarely used full throttle. (Maybe I got it all out of my system in my youth) I was thinking that maybe half that power would be sufficient to perform well (and maybe keep the front wheel on the ground some of the time)I'll have to do some homework on the batteries you mentioned. I've not read about them yet. I was thinking of using 72 volts. I'm not sure an inverter to run AC would be prectical with the limited space. Inverters used in EV's must be very different to the ones I'm used to. A 10kw house inverter is the size of a car EV motor and would weigh about the same!.
(A Toroidal inverter that is)
So DC it is I guess.

Thanks again for your input,

Cheers
Ken
" I haven't failed..I've just found 10,000 ways that it doesn't work" Thomas Edison while inventing the lightbulb

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woody
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Post by woody » Sun, 24 Aug 2008, 20:29

Yes, a kW is a kW, but an electric motor kW rating is the all day, every day without getting too hot rating, they'll do about 5 times that for a short while, which is all you need in a car.
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

antiscab
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Post by antiscab » Mon, 25 Aug 2008, 00:36

Hi Ken,

if you are going the dc motor route, you would probably be after something like an adc L-91 6.7".

to run it properly, you would want around 120v.

i havent actually seen any of the K2 cells assembled into packs yet, but based on their ratings would seem to do the trick.
I heard a rumour Ian was going to be assembling some packs:
https://www.zeva.com.au/store.php?product=86

for your application, you will need the high power cells. The pack wont be cheap though.

If you were to go for say thunderskys 120v 60AH, you would only expect a max power of around 18kw, though the price would be alot cheaper.

If you had a sufficiently high enough dc bus voltage (which you could easily do if your are already welding together a whole bunch of k2 cells), a vfd can be quite small. unfortunately vfd's of high power and shoe box size are incredibl hard to come by.

Matt

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Mon, 25 Aug 2008, 01:08

In comparison the 22kW motor I'll put in the BMW is rated to put out over 500Nm under acceleration. Image
So you can imagine a 55kW is tooth stripping stuff Image
But yes a kW is a kW so I won't be able to do 250km/hr. Image

As for AC on a bike it has been done but not 250cc performance.
AC Motorbike
The Inverters are smaller than you think.

But I agree with antiscab the K/L-91 is a good DC motor for a bike.
But to do it properly would need high performance cells.

I'll prob be doing an AC bike after the BMW.
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Post by TropicalEV » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 16:11

Awesome, thanks guys. I hope to be starting this project in a couple of months. This has given me some homework to do in the meantime Image
" I haven't failed..I've just found 10,000 ways that it doesn't work" Thomas Edison while inventing the lightbulb

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Post by Gow864 » Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 04:26

TropicalEV.

Try these guys... www.electricmotorsport.com thay sell kits for motorbikes in both AC and DC.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

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Richo
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Post by Richo » Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 04:50

Link:http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store ... _parts.php

Zeva sells most of those parts in Australia.
But those sprockets at electric motor sport are real handy!

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Post by Gow864 » Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 05:21

Apart from the AC motors, the wiring harness, the just add batteries kit. Yep Zeva sells the rest. It would be great to have a local supplier that could/would provide more than a portal to international suppliers, but until then the US sites provide a more "Plug and Play" approach.

Sprockets are easy, industrial number 50 sprocket with 7/8 bore and 3/16 keyway $20, engineering (milling it thinner to fit #520 bike chain) $20... money stays here (Aus...).
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Post by Justin Sawell » Wed, 08 Apr 2009, 18:01

I may have a catalytic event for the Brisbane Branch.

Better Place have been in touch with me and would be happy to visit a meeting and get to know us all and share their plan.

I'm thinking the Upper Mt Gravatt Community Hall sometime in May.

Is that central enough for Brisbane/Surfers people? Hands up if you'd attend?

I'll also put my hand up and say I'm prepared to organise some things for the Brisbane branch. How do we go about getting the go-ahead?

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Post by Tritium_James » Wed, 08 Apr 2009, 18:20

I'd be interested in attending the Better Place info event, and also any QLD branch meetings if we're going to try and start one...

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Post by Justin Sawell » Wed, 08 Apr 2009, 19:12

I've been in touch with Brisbane Council and they are sending me a list of the halls and the times they are available.

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 08 Apr 2009, 19:21

I'd probably be interested in attending, and certainly in anything related to setting up a Qld branch. Mt Gravatt is fine for me.
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