FS: High Voltage Stickers

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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »


XXXX



Last edited by Goombi on Tue, 28 Jul 2009, 15:44, edited 1 time in total.

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

Quick, let me catch this before it goes too far.

EVs do not contain high voltages (yet !). The intent to warn is fine but the statement itself is technically incorrect.
AS3000 describes high voltage as being > 1000V AC or >1500V DC.
This may not be useful info to the layman but is the electrical standard.

EVs contain Low, but hazardous voltages capable of pushing enough current to cause electric shock or electrocution. BUT the layman should not be able to come in contact with these voltages without 'working' on a vehicle.

The "Danger" is correct only if human contact to the voltages is possible. Under Australian NCOP14 human contact is not to be allowed in EV conversions. The requirement for insulation to prevent finger contact, water and dust ingress has been in place for years now.


Sorry to point this out. Stickers and labelling are essential, but must be correct. As an EV communinuty, we must get these details correct.

Another concern I have is that the 'high voltage' statement does a disservice to EVs in general. It creates fear in the community over EVs when the voltages used in EVs are typically less than the mains power lead to the computer you are using now. Are your toes wrapped around it ? I don't see that label on your wall socket !

If anyone's EV is electrically dangerous, it should not have been approved for use. NCOP14 already covers the requirements. There should be no 'danger' unless you have removed covers etc. (and in many cases used tools to do so). As such, the label should advise of electrical shock hazard inside, yes, danger inside, or do not open without isolating power etc.
Check under the bonnet of a prius for more ideas.

Please use 1) safe construction   2) correct labels.

I am happy for this to be bashed around so everyone is on the same page.

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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

XXXX
Last edited by Goombi on Tue, 28 Jul 2009, 15:45, edited 1 time in total.

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

What would I do ?
I would make it safe (make it comply with NCOP14 and established electrical standards such as AS3000).
i.e. make it that you couldn't touch live electrics.

How do I put this..... Hmmm, check the Engineer's sign off. Did he sign off the electrical work to comply with AS3000 and NCOP14 ? I'd love to see a copy. ( do black out their name though )
I am aware that in WA there is no electrical engineer sign off of the electrics, only the mechanics. Is this what you have there ?

Orange wire/conduit is the only message to the emergency response people. Here is a link that supports 'high voltage' naming, but not Australian.http://www.extrication.com/ERG.htm#Gene ... l_Vehicles

I am not implying there is anything wrong with your or other's conversions, but you can read the requirements as well as me.
If people don't understand what is required then they should seek advice.
The safety and future of EV conversions is my concern.
The first death and we could all be shut down. It would be that easy for Govt. to do.

No. High voltage is not 'recognised' as 36V up.
In some situations the name high voltage is used to describe hazardous voltage or voltage likely to cause electrocution.
I would agree that 'high voltage' is meaningful name even though not technically correct. Perhaps 'hazardous voltage' or 'risk of electrocution' would also be suitable. But even then these apply to the inside of EV components. There should be no risk by handling the outside.

Danger means iminent risk of injury or death. In this case just by touching ? If this is the case then the EV should never have been approved.

I'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm just aware that doing it safely to an approved standard is a lot easier than the paperwork when safe practice is not followed.

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edit: posted the notes note the final version !
Last edited by acmotor on Fri, 24 Jul 2009, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

XXXX
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Post by a4x4kiwi »

Sticker wording has come up before. From my understanding, this warning sticker Risk of electric shock complies with the AS3000 standard. I would put it on the battery box, not on the outside of a car. My battery box is my tray so i do have one reluctantly on the outside.

[edit] AC motor is correct in that the emergency services know that if they see an orange wire, not to cut it, or touch if exposed. A look at Prius confirms this.
Last edited by a4x4kiwi on Fri, 24 Jul 2009, 16:41, edited 1 time in total.
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

The topic of the stickers was raised before on the forum..

Here is one place...
viewtopic.php?t=215

I don't want EVs to be labelled as dangerous, or to BE dangerous due to wiring standard.

That is good that you have made your EV safe and yes maybe any sticker is better than none. But if you have made it safe, then having a sticker that says it is dangerous gives the wrong message. Dangerous if covers removed maybe. I'd really like to get the message and practice right for the sake of the EVs future.

On red suzi you will see plenty of international electrical hazard stickers, but you will not be able to touch any live electrics without tools or battery box keys. Stickers correctly note that the hazard is inside (not outside) the enclosures.
viewtopic.php?t=615&p=5108#p5108

viewtopic.php?t=615&p=5421#p5421

viewtopic.php?t=615&p=5482#p5482

viewtopic.php?t=615&p=5947#p5947

"each battery compartment is labelled with the appropriate hazard symbols and an indication of the voltage likely to be encountered" as per NCOP14. i.e voltages are on the battery boxes as well.

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Goombi
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Post by Goombi »

XXXX
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

I didn't say anything was wrong and you assured me it was safe. I just pointed out the issue with the sticker, its wording and the symbol.
Image

Do you follow my thinking re the wording ?
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

Everybody repeat after me...

EVs are safe
EVs are safe
stickers are dangerous
petrol is flamable
carbon dioxide is dangerous
carbon monoxide is dangerous
EVs are not dangerous.
Hybrids are not EVs
Hybrids are not green, they just use less hydrocarbons
EVs are safe.

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Post by Squiggles »

Goombi wrote:
High volage is recognised from 36 volt up


Just to set this straight

From AS3000
Extra-Low voltage - not exceeding 32VAC or 115VDC
Low voltage - exceeding extra-low voltage but not exceeding 250V
Medium voltage - exceeding low voltage but not exceeding 650V
High voltage - exceeding 650V

So in the case of EV we are looking at Low and Medium Voltage, that does not eliminate the Hazard of course.
Last edited by Squiggles on Sat, 25 Jul 2009, 05:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Electrocycle »

"DANGER - low voltage!" doesn't quite cut it from a warning sticker point of view :P

I think "dangerous voltage inside" is probably the closest sort of thing to what is needed.
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Post by Squiggles »

I think you are close.
The labeling should be a hazard warning.

First step in risk analysis is "Identify the Hazard"

so a hazard warning label would surely fit the pattern.

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Post by acmotor »

This is good.
Guys, keep chewing it over and let us get the right (international)message on the stickers. (unless your EV is dangerous to touch !) Image

Remember, international means several things.
Firstly, the symbol is an international standard and dominates the sticker as it is language independent.
The text then elaborates on the degree of the risk then the nature of the risk. Here danger is correct but refers to what is inside.
I note prius use 'danger' in fine print on the synergy drive label and refer to the inside.

As I already noted, I don't want to see those big, gross, incorrect stickers on EVs. It will not aid our cause any.
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Peter C in Canberra
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Post by Peter C in Canberra »

For what it's worth I have the stickers of the type Goombi showed above in three places.
1) On the outside of the battery enclosure.
2) On one of the components under the bonnet where one could manage to touch live wires if one tried.
3) On the bonnet of the car with another sticker that says "Electric Car". These are right at the point where the bonnet catch is.
On the bonnet and the battery enclosure the message conveyed by the location of the sticker is, I hope, "open this and you increase the risk of touching something you shouldn't."
I agree that 'high voltage' is not ideal as it is not technically correct.
I also agree that 'low voltage' would unhelpful if accurate.
'Risk of electric shock', a lightening symbol and the actual voltage would be best but I didn't have a sticker like that.
My compromise was to use the 'high voltage' sticker but I have added '150 VDC' in clear, black marker pen in the space next to the lightening triangle.
I'd be happy to change to a more appropriate sticker if someone finds a good cheap source.
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Last edited by Peter C in Canberra on Mon, 27 Jul 2009, 07:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Simon »

You can get "Danger Hazardous Voltage" stickers/signs.
Or how about these? Risk of Electric Shock
Good price too.
Or is "risk of electric shock" not enough of a warning?

I asked at a local sign shop recently when I picked up some corflute sheeting and it was quite expensive to get custom stickers made up.

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

Simon, that is like Mal's sticker.
'risk of electric shock' is quite accurate, but as you say, is it strong enough ?
It still needs to refer to the inside or contents of the electrical equipment housings. i.e. if it is placed on the outside of the items then it needs to be clear that the risk is inside. IMHO.
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Post by EV2Go »

Electrocycle wrote: "DANGER - low voltage!" doesn't quite cut it from a warning sticker point of view :P

I think "dangerous voltage inside" is probably the closest sort of thing to what is needed.
What about... Touching this will give you curly hair!

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Post by Squiggles »

EV2Go wrote:
Electrocycle wrote: "DANGER - low voltage!" doesn't quite cut it from a warning sticker point of view :P

I think "dangerous voltage inside" is probably the closest sort of thing to what is needed.
What about... Touching this will give you curly hair!


Your a fool, everyone knows that eating your crusts gives you curly hair!

Peter C in Canberra
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Post by Peter C in Canberra »

Squiggles wrote:
EV2Go wrote:
Electrocycle wrote: "DANGER - low voltage!" doesn't quite cut it from a warning sticker point of view :P

I think "dangerous voltage inside" is probably the closest sort of thing to what is needed.
What about... Touching this will give you curly hair!


Your a fool, everyone knows that eating your crusts gives you curly hair!


There's more than one way to make your hair curl!

Yes to "Dangerous Voltage Inside'

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Post by Squiggles »

Peter C in Canberra wrote:
Squiggles wrote:
EV2Go wrote: What about... Touching this will give you curly hair!


Your a fool, everyone knows that eating your crusts gives you curly hair!


There's more than one way to make your hair curl!

Yes to "Dangerous Voltage Inside'

Peter.


There you go mixing metaphors..
It's there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Actually walking around the switch yard of a 132KV substation used to make my hair stand on end....the soft continuous hum, the crackle of tracking across insulators, the feeling of impending doom. Always happy to leave.

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Post by acmotor »

What's this, Goombi's gone for a beer ? Image
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Post by Goombi »

Where are the clowns-- there ought to be clowns i think they are all here!!!

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Post by Squiggles »

Now Goombi is quoting from opera, where will it end?


Seriously, does anyone know if there is a standard for the labeling to be applied to vehicles containing battery voltages beyond 48V?

Maybe some mobile industrial machines have this scenario.

If no standard exists maybe the AEVA could make a representation to the authorities with recommendations.

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Post by Tritium_James »

The new NCOP14 says:
SELV:     Safety Extra Low Voltage. Any voltage that never exceeds 60V DC or 25V AC, usually the vehicle electrical system such as lights, horn, fans, etc

HV:(HAZ)     Hazardous Voltage. Any voltage that may be greater than 60V DC or 25V AC at any time, i.e. not SELV, usually the main traction battery pack and motor drive circuits
and then:
Direct contact with HV parts of the vehicle shall be prevented either by insulation or by the use of a reliably secured cover that can only be removed with the use of a tool.

In passenger and load compartments of the vehicle, the covers shall protect any exposed HV components to a protection rating of at least IP4X.

Covers in other areas of the vehicle (including under the bonnet) shall protect any exposed HV components to a protection rating of at least IP2X.

Figure xx - ("DANGER Electrical Hazard Authorised Personnel Only")

Covers protecting HV parts must have a label as shown in Figure xx, the dimensions of which should be 120* 90mm unless visibility is restricted. Where visibility is restricted, the largest possible warning sign having the same message and characters must be used. (This warning sign is readily available).

All HV wiring should be located outside the passenger compartment or load space in order to minimise the possibility of contact by the operator or passengers. In places where the placement of electrical wiring in the passenger compartment or load space is unavoidable, the wiring should be contained within a protective housing such as flexible or rigid orange conduit.
So that's the definitive answer.

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