Brendon_m Moke

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brendon_m
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Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 12:42

Tldr at the end

So here's a brief history of the car
1979 Leyland moke with a 998cc motor.

Bought it 10 years ago, when I first went to see it it was on its side with the front and rear subframes removed.
The guy before me had cut all the rust out but wasn't interested in doing the restoration.
He loosely put it back together and got it home. I stripped it and rewired it (I'm an auto electrician) front to back and got rid of as much of the lucas crap as I could.
Over the years it's mechanically been a lemon, I reckon I've done less than 500km. Something different would fail on every outing. A few years back I got it all up to scratch, it was running sweet so I put it up for sale. I had a guy take it for a test drive and the ignition coil died... (I drove the car that morning and it was fine, the coil i had replace only a few months prior). I said a couple of swear words and parked it up in frustration. Having had enough of the ice I decided I should go to electric. That was a few years back and lithium wasn't really an option then and I was unimpressed with lead. So the car sat in the back of my garage...
I had to move house so I got the moke up and running and drove it to the new house.
Driving it just puts a smile on my face, it's like driving a gokart on the road, even with its pitiful power(more on that in a bit)
So the research into electric starts again. Things are looking much better now and I've save up some dollaridoos so I've pulled the trigger and I'm doing ilthe conversion

Tldr
I bought a moke, the engine is crap

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Johny » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 12:56

I reckon a moke will make a fantastic EV. Plenty of room for batteries in the sides (as well as engine bay). The trick is finding a suitable gearbox/diff for it as I'm not sure you could isolate the existing mini gearbox from the ICE. Looking on with interest.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 17:13

I'm hoping the moke will be a good candidate, especially considering it needs nothing.
No power steering, no brake booster /vacuum, no heater, no a/c, not much in a moke. Just lights and a demister. At this moment the Factory gearbox is staying, I have a plan to isolate it

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 17:16

I'll try to get some pics happening. If I can work it out.....

Right got it.


This is how I bought the Moke

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 17:38

And how it is now

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"Every time you try and operate these weird black controls that are labeled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up in black to let you know you’ve done it."


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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 19:06

So my original plan was to use an ac motor out of a newer model forklift.
I found a few on Gumtree and auctions for reasonable money, but their motors where all about the 6 or 7kw continuous mark.
Hmmmm, will that be enough? 998cc original motor was 24kw (on a good day) at the flywheel, and I've modded mine(intake, extractors/exhaust, head, electronic ignition etc) so what does that all get me. Online research tells me others who have done the same level tuning up get about 35kw at the wheels... Wow! The power...
What does mine do?, hopefully gonna get at least 30kw with all the time and money I've spent. And it's running pretty well at the moment.
Dynos are too expensive /hard to organise.
So roll down test.

First up I need to weigh the car, I'm too lazy to go to a weighbridge and the moke is pretty light.
Out come the bathroom scales. (this will totally work)

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Bit of calculations and the end result was 626ish kg.
Sounds good. Manual says 660kg and I've removed the rear bumper and the roof wasn't on.
So 626kg is the official number.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 20:54

On to speed.
Took the moke for a drive round the block.
Top speed of the moke is 80km/h. But that took some effort.
But I did hit 90 going down a hill with a tail wind.
Found a frontal area figure online and a drag coefficient of a moke online.
I did a few roll down tests including one going up a steep hill to work out as power and rolling resistance.
Crunch a few more numbers, and long story short, the petrol engine makes....


Wait for it....


You'll love this...


I cried....


And laughed


Sigh.


Max power is 9.5kw alright.

Alright stop laughing now. At 9.5kw it's pretty pokey and will hit 80kmh.
Extrapolate the data a bit and if I get a 11kw+ continuous motor I'll have leagues more peak power and be able to do 100kmh+ all day.

Well that rules out most of the ac forklift motors.

The moke engine and gearbox are one unit that share oil(basically the gearbox is in the sump) and the engine drives the box through a couple of drop gears. A pmac should be narrow enough to fit on the end of the gearbox rather than on top so I can avoid having a chain or belt for the drive.

Getting stuff in Western Australia can be hard without paying through the nose for freight. However Evpower do a Me1507 pmac motor kit. 13kw con, 50kw peak. And they are based in WA. Win win.

So unless anyone here points out a flaw in my working out that's what im going to get

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by rhills » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 20:59

I don't know where we're at with electric wheel motors ATM, but I'd have thought this would be a perfect project for a couple of wheel motors, then lose all of the ICE, gearbox and Leyland's infamous universal joints :-)

Of course if you had unlimited funds, 4 wheel motors would make for a ferocious moke!
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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 21:15

I looked at wheel motors but they all seem to perform poorly in the real world and unsprung mass can be an issue (not that the moke suspension is crash hot any way).
Then you have the complexity and cost of multiple controllers.
On the other hand all wheel drive would be fun

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Johny » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 07:21

While wheel motors would be great I can't see any engineer signing off on them without exhaustive testing - brakes etc. Getting the moke gearbox an oil reservoir of its own sounds like a good way to go - or an alternative very small car donor gearbox/diff.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Richo » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 12:37

brendon_m wrote:
Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 19:06
So my original plan was to use an ac motor out of a newer model forklift.
I found a few on Gumtree and auctions for reasonable money
Interesting what were the costs like?
brendon_m wrote:
Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 19:06
...their motors where all about the 6 or 7kw continuous mark.
Hmmmm, will that be enough?
Don't forget that the 6kW will be at a certain RPM.
6.0kW @ 2,000RPM (as an example)
7.5kW @ 2,500RPM
9.0kW @ 3,000RPM
13.5kW @ 4,500RPM

So although the motor might be ok it may no longer match the existing controller.
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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Richo » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 12:56

brendon_m wrote:
Tue, 17 Jul 2018, 20:54
Evpower do a Me1507 pmac motor kit. 13kw con, 50kw peak.

So unless anyone here points out a flaw in my working out that's what im going to get
And that should be fine.

Sometimes the odd PMAC motor does turn up on fleabay.
But you have to regularly look and wait.
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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Johny » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 12:59

Is that 13kw continuous at an RPM that you will be comfortable with? IE will you be whining along at 80kmh in 2nd gear. Mini gearboxes can be loud.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 13:24

Prices were as low as $250 for a small fork that had 2x6kw continuous drive motors and a pump motor of probably the same sort of power. I was a bit upset I missed that. The scrap metal value would have made it worth it
Most were about $1000-$1500
Buy then you also need to upgrade the controller and you fast get into the same dollar value as a designed for purpose motor.
In terms of power, yes if you run the motor faster/higher voltage you can get more power
You could push slightly over 6/7kw for a little while but you won't cruise down the highway for half an hour at 110 in most cars so I scratched ac forklift motors from my list. Be good for lower speeds(60km continuously,
maybe push to 100 for brief stints) in a light car but i want a bit better top speed with overheating the motor.

The motors may even do more than 10kw for an hour but electric motors don't seem to have a nice easy way to scale their power outputs between different applications (short burst hydraulic pump type vs running all day conveyor belt type). Mostly it's just bigger is better, which I find infuriating

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 13:27

Pretty sure the rated power was at 5000rpm. Hopefully the gearbox will be OK, otherwise I can fill it with sawdust. That's how you make a gearbox quiet on a car your going to sell :lol:

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 21:33

try this on for size

Rav4 diff (its small and light) with a motor attached to it and modded half shafts with mini CV's on them
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20KW BLDC Motor
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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Wed, 18 Jul 2018, 21:53

I like the rav 4 diff. I looked at a couple of diffs but never found one really suitable. But that looks good, Ill have to work out final drive ratios and rpms but it may be too high a ratio for taking off? The pmac may not have the torque at low rpm? I'm not sure... Some else with more experience may know but I think I'll need a gearbox.

I was also looking at using a diff at the back and making it rwd but I thought licencing may be more difficult. Also the rear suspension sits inboard of the rear wheels and would get in the way of any shafts.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Jeff Owen » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 09:27

Brendon
I originally was going to convert my mini to electric and found a number of attempts to retain the gearbox in mini conversions. These included using a chain or belts to bypass the drop gears, through to one that retained the crankshaft which was chain driven from the motor. I think there are better solutions.

I have been told that installing Suzuki Swift motors and gearboxes into Minis is a "thing" and that kits may even be available. If this is the case, your engineer is likely to look favourably on you using off the shelf proven components. Depending on your choice of motor, adaptor plates are available.

Graeme at Suzi Auto Services in Brisbane has experience re-powering a mini with a Swift engine. He has also converted a number of Swifts to electric and could supply a motor and adaptor plate to suit.

Also, trawl through the photos here https://www.facebook.com/pg/GT-Tooling- ... 0305878099 . Geoff has used a Toyota diff with the motor mounted on top with a belt drive down to the diff. Changing pulley sizes would allow the final drive ratio to be optimised. There is also a Moke with the motor in the back and driving through to a diff at the front.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 10:23

you have to remember the rav4 has a Circumference of 2289mm and a moke has a Circumference of around 1658mm so that will help the equations for final drive ratios

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 12:50

I never thought of mounting the motor in the rear and running a shaft forward. So many ideas.

I've looked into doing a swift engine conversion in the past and while it is "a thing" every instance I found of the conversion they had to do some pretty major modifications to make it fit. No kits or off the shelf components.
That being said the biggest issue is that the moke engine bay is narrow and most motor /gearbox assemblies are too long to fit. I wouldn't have a long engine just a smallish electric motor so fitting might be relatively easy.

I'm actually quite keen for a straight motor to diff arrangement but it's hard to get the final drive that would be ideal(top speed vs accel)

I just saw some motor/diff assembly by xtrac that looks sexy and is designed for road cars. It would probably be perfect but they appear to want to supply to oem's only. Probably out of my budget anyway.
I'll probably bastardize a motor onto the moke gearbox, get it all running then some company will release a motor/diff setup that would drop straight in for $3.50 a dozen.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:11

Doing a quick bit of rouugh maths
100km/h =1666m per min
Wheels are roughly 1.6m in circumference.
So basically I need to axle to spin at 1000rpm to do 100km/h
Diff ratio of a rav4 diff is 2.9ish to 1.
So 2900rpm at the motor at 100km/h.
The Me1507s top rpm is 8000. That's redline so I reckon a diff with 6ish to 1 would be what I need.
Anyone know of a small 6 to 1 diff? That seems a pretty high ratio...
Last edited by brendon_m on Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 17:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Jeff Owen » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:39

Here is a Mini with Swift gearbox http://www.evalbum.com/2407

And a couple of photos of a motor on top of the diff. Final drive ratio could be changed by using different pulleys.
https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5BDC5411

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5BE0FEC2

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 16:47

185-55-13 = 597 revolutions per Km (1676mm)

185-55-13 x 319rpm = 100Km p/h

tyre size calculator/

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by brendon_m » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 17:34

Where did you get 319rpm from?
My understanding is if I spin a 1676mm circumference wheel 319 times in a minute it would have moved (1.676m x 319rpm=)534.64m
534.64m per minute for an hour is 32078m (32km)
So a 319rpm axle is 32km/h
Is that right or am I missing something?

Alternatively 597revs per km would mean I would need to rotate 59700 times to move 100km. If I want to do that in an hour I need to rotate (59700/60)995 times a minute, so basically 1000rpm.
I feel I haven't buggered this calculation up, but if I have I must be missing something obvious.

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Re: Brendon_m Moke

Post by jonescg » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 19:01

The wheel will be doing 1000 rpm at 100 km/h, and the motor spins up to 7000 rpm, so a 6:1 reduction sounds about right.
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