dogphlap's Jumbuck

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dogphlap
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dogphlap's Jumbuck

Post by dogphlap » Thu, 03 Jul 2014, 16:53

Hi everybody,

I’m doing a Proton Jumbuck conversion (just a hobby, won’t be fast and professional like Weber and Coulomb's MX-5). This has been brewing since November, but is just getting serious now. I’d like any feedback on things people like/dislike in my build. My Jumbuck resembles others somewhat i.e similar physical layout of the motor-gearbox and battery (due to practical reasons, and in some cases identical components) among other things.

I’ve currently removed the exhaust system, petrol tank engine and gearbox and I'm about to mate the motor to the flywheel. This implies that I’ll get something practical within 12 months.
Any suggestions are welcome, but I won’t promise I’ll implement them.

You say plagiarism I say homage.

Now a question:
I've taken the center out of the original clutch plate and I want to braze or weld that to a steel disc as part of the drive coupling (motor to gearbox).
I assume this will change the temper of the steel (in particular the spline). Does anyone have any suggestion on how to restore the original hardness (and what hardness should the spline have, obviously not too hard i.e. brittle and not too soft i.e. stripped spline).

Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Thu, 03 Jul 2014, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BigMouse » Thu, 03 Jul 2014, 19:09

How close to the spline are you going to be welding?

Unless you're going to be heating the ENTIRE spline hub to red hot during the welding process (that's abig chunk of metal) I wouldn't worry about it.

Last time I used a clutch disk spline alone in a coupling I machined the outside of it to be an interference fit with the inside of the hub which mated to the motor shaft. I tacked a few welds on one end just to keep it from turning, but that probably wasn't even necessary .

Image

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Post by Richo » Thu, 03 Jul 2014, 20:32

So do you have any planned specs ie motor, controller, batteries?
Please take some photos for us to see Image
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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 01:24

Hi BigMouse, Richo, and anyone else,

I have no batteries as yet (far too much to do before I even consider buying any).
However tentatively I thought I might get:

360 of the Headway 40152 15Ah LiFePO4 cells arranged as 90 quads i.e. 288V @ 60Ah = 17.28kWh

At $30.00 each = $11000 ($12000 if GST is not included in that price) plus freight.

These would fit where the 40 litre petrol tank used to be (maybe) and if not there should be room under the bonnet/hood for the overflow.

The 30kW (50kW peak) brush-less water cooled motor and controller came from EV Power in Western Australia.

At the moment I'm trying to test run the motor.
To do that I've built a test frame and I'm building a 288V 2kW DC power supply (2kW should be more than enough to run the motor off load). Mechanically and hydraulically it's complete.
I'm waiting on some high wattage resistors via eBay for the soft start of this power supply (the rectified mains feeds a 0.64F 600V capacitor bank running at 350V DC, which then supplies the 288V twin IGBT voltage regulator stage). Just a little concerned about the motor tachometer cable that seems to have had a bit of a hard time in transit from WA. To check it would mean breaking a seal that states "Warranty void if seal broken". I may break the seal to check it anyway (if the controller uses that in a feedback loop to control rpm it might not be too choice if the tacho cable had sustained a broken wire). Without circuit diagrams of the controller I'm flying blind.

The Jumbuck was built in March 2010 so it's not very old but it has done 114,000km. It is not currently registered.

I'd originally thought of using a Subaru Brumby but they have not made those since the 90's so when Rodney Dilkes mentioned that he had used that model of motor in a Jumbuck I thought that makes more sense (I don't need the four wheel drive) than buying a Brumby that would have a lot of miles and probably a lot of rust. With a Ute I could take a couple of Honda generators with me if I wanted to travel to the Gold or Sunshine coasts (about 200km round trips). The generators need only be carried for long trips (and not used while the vehicle was in motion). I could even use the original engine to drive a generator (but I don't think I will), loading it into the tray when needed. I'm getting much too far ahead of myself, early days.

I'll take some pictures of the plumbers nightmare that is the motor test jig, the clutch center and some other stuff and put them up tomorrow (assuming no site restrictions for loading images). Graeme Manietta suggested to me that I could use two clutch centers (the gearbox input shaft has long enough splines to accommodate two) and I probably will if I go clutchless. The trouble with clutchless plus gear box is it is not compatible with regenerative braking (or so I've heard). I will use the original gearbox but blank off 1st and 2nd gears. Lots of torque from the electric motor but not enough that I don't need some torque multiplying from the gearbox. Without a gearbox and geared for 5000 rpm at 110kph it would just crawl away from a stop (and maybe not even go forward at all after stopping on an uphill grade). Maximum rpm is variously quoted as 5000rpm and I think 10000rpm depending on which document you read. The various documents cover a range of similar motors (though none of them are exactly what I have).

Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Thu, 03 Jul 2014, 16:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 03:29

Hi dogphlap

what is the reason your going with the Headway 40152 15Ah LiFePO4 cells?

you need 4 of them to make 60Ah when you could be using CALB LiFePO4 Cell 3.2V 60Ah for $30 less for same Ah and you also only need 1 set of connecters insted of 4 with the headways

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Post by 4Springs » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 03:56

Hey - nice project!
Looks like mine but better in almost every way. Better motor, controller, has regen, lighter battery. The only thing letting you down is the donor vehicle! (but maybe I'm biased Image )
I can't contribute anything on the question you actually asked - it looks like you have way more mechanical experience that I do, but I can show you pictures of what my engineer made for me: here
I do have some general interest questions though - how are your weight calculations going? Have you an idea of what weight you have taken out and what you are putting back in? Your proposed battery is smaller in capacity than mine, but is also a fair bit lighter so your range might be similar (100km).

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 04:00

I strongly recommend buying the batteries last, and making the battery boxes as large as possible to accomodate as many variations as possible.

Matt
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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 04:43

Re: Adverse Effects.
I may not go with the Headway.
I have not given it much thought at this stage.
When I have the motor installed I'll do a bit of research.
What attracted me to the Headway was the form factor that made a good fit with the available space (but that fit may not turn out to be as good as I expect once I've done some accurate measurements). Saving 25% on battery cost is a good argument. Reducing the connector count is not a big consideration for me (but never the less it has to be a plus).

Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Thu, 03 Jul 2014, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 05:08

Re: 4Springs.
Weight distribution will end up front end light but by how much I don't know yet. Moving cells to under the bonnet will be necessary to approach the original distribution. The tray is designed to take up to a 1/2 ton so the weight distribution was always highly variable (depending on the weight of the load you were carrying).

I agree the Proton is not a great vehicle (it had the poorest crash safety rating of any when it was in production, it did not even have a drivers air bag, my 2010 does not have a drivers air bag). It is a Mitsubishi Lancer CC (from the B pillar forward) and built with the original tooling that Proton bought from Mitsubishi. It hardly changed over its production life. What changes Proton made i.e. the fuel injection and engine management just made the thing worse. So although my car is not that old the design is very old. For my purposes a newish car and an old (not too many computers) simple design is OK. Trouble is I wanted a small Ute and that meant choosing between a Mighty Boy (no thanks), a Brumby (much better vehicle but hard to get one that is not tired and or rusty since they stopped production a long time ago) or a Jumbuck (also no longer in production since 2010 but mine is only 4 years old so although it was never a good vehicle it will do). I owned a Subaru touring wagon that I drove around Brisbane, Fraser and Morton Islands. I liked it but that was a long time ago. Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 03:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 05:11

Re: Antiscab.

I strongly agree.

Best regards.

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 13:02

Re: Adverse Effects. Another thing that attracted me to the form factor is height. I'd like to have these under the car (where the petrol tank lived). The Headways are 152mm while the CALBs are 181mm (or 240mm, from the scecond image on the page you linked to). Another 30mm (or maybe 88mm) extra hanging down under the vehicle could be problematic. Also a higher surface area vs volume should allow for better cooling heat transfer with the Headways. Edit I just did the sums (see subsequent post).

Anyway I welcome the link. I have a lot to do before I get serious about choosing a battery pack (but I'm already pretty sure I'll go for single cells rather than 12V batteries) and if the extra depth is only 30mm that probably would not make any difference (after all it would lower the center of gravity by a small (i.e. insignificant) amount). Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 04:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by roddilkes » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 15:11

Good choice of car ;)

We have converted three Jumbucks now. All still going, touch wood...
The best thing about a front wheel drive ute is there is plenty of space under the tray and they are built to carry a load.

Jumbucks are also mechanically and electrically fairly simple.
You need to keep the battery weight as far forward as possible to keep the weight distribution right.
We managed to do this without locating cells in the engine bay which also makes for a neat conversion.

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 15:17

I just did the numbers:
For the Headways SurfaceArea/Volume = 113m^-1
For the 2 CALB cells SurfaceArea/Volume = 72 or 73m^-1

Closer than I expected.
The Headways are 60% better in this one respect.
Another probably greater consideration is the mean (or should that be rms or even maximum) length of the path from where the heat is generated to the cells outside surface. All too difficult to even guess at in this case.

Of course the above results assume my maths are correct. Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 05:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 15:51

dogphlap wrote:....Also a higher surface area vs volume should allow for better cooling heat transfer with the Headways. Edit I just did the sums (see subsequent post)..
I wouldn't really consider this an issue. Considering the 50kW peak motor you are using neither Headway nor Calb cells will heat significantly (other than from ambient air temperature). Under my usual driving conditions I would be lucky to get a 2 degree C heat rise from my Headway cells.

Edit: Under not User
Last edited by Johny on Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 05:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 17:21

Re: Johny

I'm sure you're right. My sums would come under the heading of self pleasuring. Far too many variables nearly all of which are unknown and unknowable (at least for me) to arrive at any sensible conclusions.

Best regards.
Last edited by dogphlap on Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 17:36

Ha. That's fair enough Price.

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 18:07

Re: Big Mouse.

Please find image of clutch center.Image

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Post by dogphlap » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 19:00

Please find image of the aforementioned plumbers nightmare.

The blue thing is a LiPo battery charger. It has nothing to do with this (it just normally lives on the 12V power supply that I've used to power the variable (see blue knob) speed coolant pump). The long black thing on the low pressure side of the pump is a water filter that should stop the larger rocks.

Using MDF was a bad idea. Even a slight water leak is destructive (I should have used that stuff that kitchen cupboards are made of).

Not too sure about the mix of metals i.e. Al core radiator, brass pump hose tails and steel (I guess, it is magnetic) motor water jacket.

Still awaiting the 288V power supply.

Best regards.Image
Last edited by dogphlap on Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Richo » Fri, 04 Jul 2014, 21:11

Yeah at 3C battery heat isn't an issue.
The Prismatic (TS/SE) cells should be fine if you can get them to fit.
I'd be surprised if you could get more than 1/2 of the headways where the fuel tank used to be.
So regardless of what cells you use some will need to be in the engine bay or made into the tray.

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Post by jonescg » Thu, 16 Aug 2018, 14:30

I have this exact motor and inverter ready to go in the Prelude. Did you ever install it? Did you find the gearbox was essential? Need the clutch?
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