Voltron-Evo; jonescg's new electric race bike

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Voltron-Evo; jonescg's new electric race bike

Post by pottz » Tue, 27 Oct 2015, 18:33

The motor was too hot so the controller backed the power off.

Chris will correct me if i'm wrong but I think there are a couple different motor temps he has set where it will start by backing the power off before shutting it off altogether if it gets really hot.

Its set pretty conservatively for protection and we are pretty sure it wont be an issue in the future.

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 27 Oct 2015, 20:35

Yeah the motor windings have three temperature limits - start to taper the maximum torque with temp from 105'C; give effectively zero torque (115'C) and shut down, you've had too much (125'C).

These are fairly conservative as the hard limit is about 140'C, but we won't be going there unless we really need to.

Main reason was the high torque load at low speeds, followed by hard braking (regen) followed by high torque loads. There was little airflow through the radiator to cool it through the corners. It's not a problem at Sydney because the times you're at full torque, you're doing about 200 km/h or more. A bigger radiator would be ideal though, with larger diameter hoses for more uniform mass flow. Maybe a CBR600 radiator will fit?
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Post by Johny » Tue, 27 Oct 2015, 21:19

Unless I was mistaken it looked on the videos that the gearing was little out. Voltron appeared to have much more top speed torque but was slower on pickup from lower speeds. So gearing would have helped a lot.
Trouble with a bigger radiator is more weight and maybe more drag.
Those damn gearboxes have their benefits. Image

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Post by jonescg » Tue, 27 Oct 2015, 23:04

We still took off at a great rate, so the gearing wasn't too far out. Slow on the exits is partially a trait of the bike's geometry. We probably could have dropped a tooth on the front for Winton, given that it still wheelies with the current gearing... It's spot on for Sydney though. The current radiator is probably OK, it's just being fed by a 3/8" hose when it really needs 1/2" for better mass flow.
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Post by jonescg » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 07:11



We took Voltron Evo to the drags last Wednesday. We're not technically in any category, so a lot of rigmarole would be required to get it licensed for drag racing. However they're clearly a bit more relaxed about it at Whoopass Wednesdays at the Kwinana Motorplex. Pottz did a 9.989 straight out, then a 9.978. He was asked to slow down, lest he raise the ire of the organisers. SO he did a run where he pulled a lazy 10.2. We charged it up, added some torque and on our last run, pulled a 9.92 second quarter mile.

Pretty happy about that!

Everyone at the drags that night was very impressed, and more convinced than ever that the future of going fast is electric.
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Post by EV2Go » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 15:21

Congratulations, those are some very impressive times! Can you please post the time slip or the various times, curious to see how it stacks up against the bike. Also confirms that my dreams of running 10's on my trike isn't as crazy as I first thought.
Last edited by EV2Go on Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Voltron-Evo; jonescg's new electric race bike

Post by weber » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 15:24

Well done! Image Image
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Post by pottz » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 16:30

Image

for those who don't know what the numbers line up with....

Elapsed Time     9.978
Terminal Speed   238.32kph
Reaction Time    0.188
60'              1.825
330'             4.628
660'             6.734
660' speed       193.38kph
1000'            8.476

We went a smige quicker on another run and did a 9.92@240kph

What all the numbers mean is we were slow of the line as we knew we would be but it really hauled ass up top.

I knew it was slow (relative) to get moving and knew the 60' time wouldn't be the best. The 60' in drag racing means a lot and I was surprised we dipped into the 9's but it just goes to show the amount of power it has up top.
I raced a ZX14 that was lowered, pipe, tune etc and passed it in the top end of the track, that's how much power this bike has. Shame we didn't strap the gopro to the bike to show how fast it was driving past really powerful bikes after 1/2 track but I didn't quite expect it.

shortening the gearing and cranking the ramp up rate would likely see a better 60' time and an improvement in Elapsed Time but its a circuit bike and it was run as we normally race it.

Again. What a machine, well done Chris!

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Post by weber » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 17:02

pottz wrote:for those who don't know what the numbers line up with....

Elapsed Time     9.978
Terminal Speed   238.32kph
Reaction Time    0.188
60'              1.825
330'             4.628
660'             6.734
660' speed       193.38kph
1000'            8.476


Hi Danny. Thanks for trying to explain, but I'm still completely mystified because I don't see any unit symbols I recognise. I assume "kph" means "km/h" and I assume the numbers with no units are "s" but what do the single-quotes/apostrophes mean?

And is the course really a quarter of 1,609.344 metres, or is "quarter mile" just colloquial for 400 m?

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 17:14

Hey now come on, we rocked up to a crowd of mullets with our 'technology' and 'metric system' and still pulled a 9.9 second pass. We're just pleased they didn't come at us with pitchforks!
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Post by pottz » Sat, 30 Jan 2016, 17:31

It was only recently they stopped displaying the speeds in miles per hour as well.

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Post by EV2Go » Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 04:52

weber wrote:
pottz wrote:for those who don't know what the numbers line up with....

Elapsed Time     9.978
Terminal Speed   238.32kph
Reaction Time    0.188
60'              1.825
330'             4.628
660'             6.734
660' speed       193.38kph
1000'            8.476


Hi Danny. Thanks for trying to explain, but I'm still completely mystified because I don't see any unit symbols I recognise. I assume "kph" means "km/h" and I assume the numbers with no units are "s" but what do the single-quotes/apostrophes mean?

And is the course really a quarter of 1,609.344 metres, or is "quarter mile" just colloquial for 400 m?

Image
Correct kph should be k/mh but we all get the gist of what was meant, as for the quarter being a quarter of 1,609.344 meters... Well that depends on what country and what class you are running.

Typically MOST classes, in most countries do run a quarter of 1,609.344m, but there are exceptions. For example in the U.S. they no longer run Top Fuel over the quarter mile but rather over 1000ft.

They did this several years ago to keep the speed down. I don't particularly like it but it is a decision that the NHRA decided they wanted to make following the death of a well know Top Fuel and Funny Car driver Scott Kalitta (although lots of people have died drag racing).

In Australia ANDRA decided to keep the full quarter mile distance, and as far as I know are the only country to do so. This makes it difficult to compare U.S. times to Australian times.

As for the s, yes everything is based on seconds to 3 decimal places. Some tracks display the speed in MPH, some in K/mh and some in both.

EDIT: Brain retaining wrong distance information!!!

Last edited by EV2Go on Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 05:15

jonescg wrote:
We took Voltron Evo to the drags last Wednesday. We're not technically in any category, so a lot of rigmarole would be required to get it licensed for drag racing. However they're clearly a bit more relaxed about it at Whoopass Wednesdays at the Kwinana Motorplex. Pottz did a 9.989 straight out, then a 9.978. He was asked to slow down, lest he raise the ire of the organisers. SO he did a run where he pulled a lazy 10.2. We charged it up, added some torque and on our last run, pulled a 9.92 second quarter mile.

Pretty happy about that!

Everyone at the drags that night was very impressed, and more convinced than ever that the future of going fast is electric.
Just to give you some perspective I have put your times along side my best times and have shown the comparative difference in a chart.

60' times show virtually no difference (which surprises me considering how slow I get away), and even 330' times are very close (less than a tenth of a second) it is only at the 1/8th mile mark that it start to pull away. It is interesting to note that by the 1/8th mark it has pulled a 15.77 k/mh or 9.8 mph speed difference over my bike, which is considerable.

By the 1000' and 1/4 mile marks the gap seems to be progressively bigger due to the extra speed, but by the quarter there is only an 18.85 k/mh or 11.72 mph difference (virtually no additional speed increase past the 1/8th).

This is probably where a big top ending ICE bike would pick up the EV, as a comparative ICE bike would have had a bigger speed gap by the end of the quarter.

To be honest the numbers aren't what I expected from the EV, I would have thought the 60' and 300' times would have been much quicker not having to feather out a clutch by a few tenths even with the wrong gearing, and the top speed is higher than I would have thought.

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Post by pottz » Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 15:29

https://www.facebook.com/motorplex/vide ... 892875386/


Its a shame this discussion started when I am now at work and the time slips are at home so we cant compare our best run but...

I found on Facebook the time slip of the PB for the bike in this video as another good comparison. Its a ZX14 with a couple of mods like a pipe and filter that I could see.

Image

Like EV2Go said Voltron is a little slow to get moving but mid track it is faster and catching the ZX14 by 8.84km/h which is pretty amazing remembering the ZX14 took off faster and is considered the most powerful off the shelf drag bike you can buy.
Just after 1/2 track at about 200km/h we hit field weakening and the acceleration slows down but are still travelling 2.99km/h faster at the end.

Just to remove any 'you should have ridden harder' doubts watch the elbow action in the video, I wasn't pussy footing around on the throttle. A smooth but fast roll straight to full throttle is what I have found works best for the bike, much faster than that pops the front up momentarily and slows it down. There isn't much more I can give it off the line.

The drags is a great comparison and all those numbers pretty much confirm that the bike has most of its power and acceleration right where it needs to for a circuit racing bike. If you were building a drag bike you would approach it differently but it surely performed well and got a few people down there interested.

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Post by EV2Go » Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 17:51

Anyone that has launched a 10 second bike will know that to get into the 9's you weren't hanging around at the start. ET is won and lost at the start...

I still don't get why the Voltron is not faster off the mark though with the whole peak torque thing going on, or is it simply that you can't apply any more?

I have tried all sort of starts and I have found the more aggressive start result in a few more MPH, but usually have a slower ET.

My model ZX-10R is supposed to be able to run a 10.02 according to Wiki, but my friend on his 2014 ZX-10R has only managed 0.005 second faster than me, so be damned if I know how they would ever get it that low without a longer rear arm.

Would be real interesting to see what the Voltron would run with an extended swing arm.

Edit:

Please note I'm not questioning what you guys are doing with regards to the bike, I am just trying to understand the "why" just in case I need to make design changes to my own trike.
Last edited by EV2Go on Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 07:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jonescg » Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 19:08

Mostly gearing I reckon. We currently have a top speed of about 250 km/h with pretty tall gearing. If we dropped a tooth from the front we'd have to settle for 235 km/h top speed, but you'd be watching that the front wheel doesn't come up off the ground by 1/4 track. I doubt with this motor/inverter combination we could get Voltron to go much faster than a 9.5 second pass.
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Post by pottz » Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 19:42

Chris will be able to answer the technical details of how close to the limit we are and any changes he could make to optimise it for the drags but I have asked to have the bike to be set up to be very 'rideable' (its faster than being an uncontrollable animal) I am fairly sure the ramp rate for the torque can be increased by a decent margin and would result in getting off the line faster but riding it the bike does not have the instant acceleration that everyone thinks it would have from 0km/h.

I've mentioned to Chris before and other riders agree that the slower the corner the more throttle I use. For example coming out of a slow 50km/h hairpin I will just pin the throttle to the stop on exit but on a fast sweeper say 160-180km/h I have to be careful and only use about 1/2 throttle on exit else it will spin the rear wheel.
In theory I've been told its constant (peak?) torque and should have full acceleration from 0km/h and I have even seen a dyno sheet that says so but seat of the pants I would definitely say it accelerates harder the faster I am going up to 200km/h

It almost makes sense to my simple brain and I would love it if I am wrong and someone can explain this to me like a 5 year old but the way I see it....

HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252
Horsepower is a measure of how much work can be done over time.
So the more power you have, the more work it can do so the faster the bike accelerates right? (forgetting wind, friction etc)
If we have constant torque then the power increases as the RPM increases right? (as we see on a dyno, a nice linear line)
so it makes sense to me that the bike accelerates faster as it has more speed (therefore motor RPM) because it makes more power as the RPM increases.
or am I wrong??

At the moment grip and wheel stands were not an issue at all, A longer swing arm would mean I could snap the throttle open a tiny but faster but there isn't much in it. I don't feel it would make much of a benefit unless we could get the power to come on a lot harder.

(On your ZX10 its ALL about the clutch!! Aaiden has pulled something ridiculous like a 10.8 on his old honda CBR600, the boy can race start!! but he also replaces clutches a lot)

Edit: and what Chris said about gearing would help it a lot.
Last edited by pottz on Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 08:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 00:32

Yeah very different animals to launch, my fastest times have come not from launching with crazy RPMs (10,000) but from something more moderate (~5,500) and even then you can't just let the clutch out you, have to let the clutch out to close to pick up point on the line and then gently release the clutch to stop it wheel standing otherwise this happens.

Interesting you should say that it doesn't have the instant oomph that most people would expect, but I guess when you really think about it you have to compare apples with apples...

When I let my clutch out I have reciprocating mass to help carry me off the line with an EV you may have peak torque but you don't have anything previously spinning.

This is both good and bad, good from the standpoint that don't have mass to invoke wheelies or wheel spin, but bad that you don't have mass to help move it initially off the line.

Perhaps because you don't have that reciprocating mass you could launch with more controller power for a faster ET.

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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 00:37

Just out of curiosity how many times did you need to back off during your run to put the front wheel down?

When I first started racing the ZX-10R I would often need to back off 3 to 4 times per run to keep the front wheel down.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 00:50

by rights if the controller is dialed in correctly the front should never leave the ground and should be almost wight less (almost)

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Post by pottz » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 00:52

Not once, as long as I keep my body weight right I can just pin it and hold it flat.
The front just lifts or skims the ground a bit at about 1/2 track but I don't have to back off or rear brake at all.

To be honest it was all pretty easy.

Edit: yep, like you say it's dialed in pretty well.
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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 00:54

is there any rule stopping you putting a small computer and a few small censers on the bike to control the acceleration?

you could have is set up to measure the wight on the front wheel and increase or decrease the torque as needed

then all the rider has to do is hold a button in for the run

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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 01:11

Yeah you could make electric drag racing so consistent you wouldn't be able to touch it with an ICE vehicle.

It's my intention to just have an inhibitor button on the left that I hold in while I wind the throttle on full, green light let go of the button and just have the Soliton 1 curve drive it off the line for me.
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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 01:14

LOL i just reread my last post and it made drag racing sound so easy a baby could do it gezzzz

i do know just how skilled you have to be to do it

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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 01:36

It's not really all that hard as long as you have good hand / foot / eye co-ordination / good reactions.

But electric drag racing would take easy to a whole new level. As I say I plan to just keep playing with the torque / power curve until it leaves as hard as it can without flipping (and that will be hard with wheelie bars on).

So just hold on the inhibitor button (same as a clutch) wind the throttle on and just let go at the right time and enjoy the ride :D

Edit:

Actually I have been wondering if that might help you guys in circuit racing... You could hold it at half throttle with the button in and on the green light let the button go and wind on the rest of the throttle.

Would save time winding on that first half of the throttle or maybe with experimentation work out the ideal launch position.
Last edited by EV2Go on Sun, 31 Jan 2016, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.

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