Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

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antiscab
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sun, 21 Sep 2014, 16:21

I made another discovery - the "turtle" or more accurately in this case, the uniform charge request flag stays until it actually happens (I still have a wiring fault so two block voltages are way off)

previously to do a hard reset I was disconnecting the 12v battery.
yesterday I tried just disconnecting the battery ecu from 12v - that worked a treat.

also, I found another NHW10 for sale in NSW:
nwh10 $1500
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Sun, 21 Sep 2014, 20:48

some things here don't make sense to me. I would have said that some fault codes can be cleared by disconnecting the 12V battery, but if you get a triagle then it can't. I thought the uniform charge request happened and this set the triangle.
Can you not reset the ECU from the scanner?
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Mon, 22 Sep 2014, 06:36

gtyler54 wrote: some things here don't make sense to me. I would have said that some fault codes can be cleared by disconnecting the 12V battery, but if you get a triagle then it can't. I thought the uniform charge request happened and this set the triangle.
Can you not reset the ECU from the scanner?


the problem is, the wire going to block 17 has a break in it

this means the battery ECU always reads block 17 as 0v and block 18 as 20.00v

what happens is if any of the other block voltages go out of range, a second uniform charge request code is set, meaning the turtle comes on and battery discharge is halted.

that second code cannot be cleared while any of the block voltages are out of range, with the TECU program (or the scanner for that matter)

it can, however, be cleared by removing 12v.

it's all a work around, until I get around to pulling the battery apart and reconnecting wire 17
Matt
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Mon, 22 Sep 2014, 06:39

so to be clear, I can't clear the triangle until there are actually no faults - I just happen to be ignoring them because the car works anyway.
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sun, 05 Oct 2014, 00:23

anothe dead battery nhw10 in Vic:
Mentone Vic

$2k is asking a bit much IMO though
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Sun, 05 Oct 2014, 12:43

I have bought a few for $1000. I have 4 going properly now, hard to resist buying more!
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Tue, 07 Oct 2014, 06:34


I bought another one 2 weeks ago for $650 delivered - with dead battery but otherwise working

my lithium prius is playing up
I thought it may have been because of the broken wire on block 17

So I opened it up to fix it - I discovered a dead cell (short circuit)

I've replaced the cell and put it all back together (with temp sensors actually in the battery this time)

But I'm still getting the following error codes, even after a hard reboot (12v disconnected for 30 sec, then reconnect)

battery ECU:
C2544 - can't find the official meaning, however I think it is the flag set where the a block voltage falls too far under load. that's what I thought I was seeing while driving, but the logs made by TECU showed all the block voltages being consistent at all load levels.

C2576 - discharge inhibit - flag just set due to c2544

C2579 - uniform charge request - flag just set due to c2544

inverter:
C2679 - HV battery failure - flag set due to c2576

live readings from the battery ECU:
SOC lower limit charge flag on, while soc is 100% - not sure why the car did this, but I think it's part to the want to do an equalisation charge

discharge control: 0.00kw (when working this used to be 21.00kw)
charger control: 0.00kw (I can't remember what this used to be)

battery pack abnormal flag

I think I will have to do far more testing, I think the logs aren't updated often enough see how far the blocks actually sag, as the car won't put a big load on the battery for very long due to the 0 discharge control

I think if I can identify what causes the battery ECU to log the c2544 error I can sort it out
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by coulomb » Wed, 08 Oct 2014, 03:30

antiscab wrote: ... So I opened it up to fix it - I discovered a dead cell (short circuit)

Just curious. Have your sourced these GBS cells from EV Power?
If so, did they come packaged as 12 V modules and you opened them up to get access to the individial cells?
Or direct from China perhaps?
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Wed, 08 Oct 2014, 12:31

Rennacs website has a facility to enter a code manually and find out what it means. I did try to find it there for you but could not get it to work. maybe phone Glen at RRennacs, he will be able to tell you I think.
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Fri, 10 Oct 2014, 04:05

coulomb wrote:
antiscab wrote: ... So I opened it up to fix it - I discovered a dead cell (short circuit)

Just curious. Have your sourced these GBS cells from EV Power?
If so, did they come packaged as 12 V modules and you opened them up to get access to the individial cells?
Or direct from China perhaps?


I sourced these from EV Power

I did have an overdischarge event, where the car halted discharge of the battery as a couple of the 5 cell blocks fell below 13v - it is most likely the dead cell shorted then.

The car hasn't worked right since

I have been going back of some of the logs I took, and noticed that block 20 is consistently 1v lower than the rest at around 15-20A of load.

that, I think, is the cause of the C2544 error

in a nimh battery, if a block is 1v low, theres a dead cell
in this case, with a LiFePO4 battery, I likely have one or more cell with higher internal resistance.
I'm going to replace it (means I have to pull it all apart again *groan*)

I think the 20Ah GBS cells are marginal in this application, I'll try headways next if I have more problems.

I bought my cells as 12v sets, but that's just the packaging, the outter casing isn't sealed, and inside the cells are the same as what you can get supplied bare

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by Richieb » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 17:31

Hi Antiscab, where in NSW are you, I'm in 2567.
I have an S2000 with all the programs of I can help?.
Hmmmmmm, I wonder if....

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sun, 02 Nov 2014, 20:50

Richieb wrote:where in NSW are you, I'm in 2567.
I have an S2000 with all the programs of I can help?.


unfortunately I'm in Perth, Western Australia

just another update on the problems I'm having:

1) My GBS cells are probably marginal in this application - they're not well matched for internal resistance, so when the car tries to pull 70A, some cell groups sag too far, so the car logs a battery error and stops using the battery completely.



2) for the car to work properly, the battery has to be empty enough to take 35A of regen without going overvoltage, and to accept some charge at the start of the drive while the engine is warming up. to achieve this, I'm disconnecting my TC Charger when the battery voltage reaches 340v (that results in the battery being charged to ~85% SOC).

the battery also can't go below ~40% SOC, otherwise the voltage sag becomes too high, and the battery ECU stops trusting the battery, meaning I have to restart it manually.

the end result is this plug in hybrid only has ~2.5kwh of usable capacity.

I'm looking at retiring the GBS battery and getting some A123 20Ah cells from OSN Power.
I'm hoping this will fix problem 1, and increase the usable capacity.


3) when the battery ECU flags a battery problem and stops the car from using it, I have to disconnect power from the ECU to reboot it. If I don't, the car doesn't use the battery at all, and it will randomly stop working while driving.

When I do restart the battery ECU, the first thing it does is an equalization charge - which a lithium battery can't actually do, so I may have damaged some cells by overcharge (I had cell group 9 go over 20V (over 4.0v average) though interestingly on subsequent drives cell group 9 has not cropped up as either highest or lowest voltage group at all, so I may have got away with it.

basically there's a value that can be read with the TECU program called SOC Adjust.
normally this is set to 0.
during an equalisation, this is set to -4.4kw - that is the SOC the battery ECU assumes is adjusted down by 4.4kw continuously

I tried last night restarting the ECU with a discharged battery, so the car would have to put in more than 10Ah before the battery was full - plenty I would have thought for the car to think it had done an equalisation charger on the original 6.5Ah nimh battery (because I haven't changed the program in the car at all)

I had to drive on the freeway for around 45mins - the car just kept charging until the battery was full.

I'm not sure what conditions the are to flag the end of the equalisation charge - but a straight Ah count does not appear to be one of them.

The SOC Adjust value seems to be reset to 0 the next day, but I'm still not clear what conditions cause it.

problem 3 I can work around if problems 1 and 2 are fixed, as the need for a battery ECU reset is far less likely

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Post by antiscab » Sun, 02 Nov 2014, 21:01

I replaced the bad cells last week, but I think my bigger problem is the GBS 20Ah cells aren't up to the job of giving 35A continuous, with 75A peaks and regen of 50A

I'll keep using the battery over the summer, as I need to track temperature. presently the hottest I have seen the battery get on a warm day is 35 deg C - which is a non issue.

I'm curious as to how a 45 deg C day will go.

My car is always parked outside - I have no where else to put it

65 deg C is the hard limit for LiFePO4
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 10 Nov 2014, 13:43

As the car is already an EV hybrid and registered as such, will a new engineers certificate be required? I'm tossing up between the Electrolux and a 2004 model Prius with crook batteries. The cost of getting either of them to my place is roughly the same, but the Prius is still driveable and registered. The Electrolux needs a bit more work to get the batteries sorted, then rego, but it's already engineered in NSW, it would be a plug in EV and a work horse which is probably more what I need to replace the kombi while it's off the road for a body rebuild and conversion to full electric drive. Then I still need a work horse for the big bus project so it can finally proceed after all these yrs ....... I know this is conflict of interests in your case as you want your garage space back :lol:

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Post by antiscab » Mon, 10 Nov 2014, 19:17

T1 Terry wrote: As the car is already an EV hybrid and registered as such, will a new engineers certificate be required? I'm tossing up between the Electrolux and a 2004 model Prius with crook batteries. The cost of getting either of them to my place is roughly the same, but the Prius is still driveable and registered.


Personally I would go the Prius - you can always sell it and get *all* your money back once it has exceeded it's usefullness

I'm not familiar enough with the 2004 Prius - I don't know what is needed to go plug in or switch to lithium on that one

I can only do the grey import 1997 - 1999 prius
you can buy these from between $500 and $1000 with dead battery though.
brand new original battery is $2500
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 11 Nov 2014, 05:35

antiscab wrote: 1999 prius you can buy these from between $500 and $1000 with dead battery though.
brand new original battery is $2500

And available throughout New Zealand. [ Edit: from Toyota. Other cells may not work for long. ]

I don't believe you can get them in Australia.
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 12 Nov 2014, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by antiscab » Wed, 12 Nov 2014, 05:54

coulomb wrote:
antiscab wrote: 1999 prius you can buy these from between $500 and $1000 with dead battery though.
brand new original battery is $2500


I don't believe you can get them in Australia.


just import yourself:
NHW10 sticks

they're not classed as hazardous cargo, so they can be shipped by common carrier, even if by sea
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Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 12 Nov 2014, 13:38

Thanks for the link, how many sticks are there is a complete battery? I see the new sticks are 10Ah and the original sticks were 6.5Ah, so a mix and match is going to lead to reverse charged cells very quickly.

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 12 Nov 2014, 15:41

you would need 40 sticks

definitely do not mix new and old

it's not the capacity difference that will get you - it's the difference in self discharge profile
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Post by reecho » Wed, 12 Nov 2014, 16:35

So do these sticks work fine even with the added capacity?

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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 12 Nov 2014, 17:48

your car realy isnt looking at the capacity its looking at the cell voltage

the controller dont care id it takes longer for the voltage to drop

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Post by antiscab » Thu, 13 Nov 2014, 06:01

Adverse Effects wrote: your car realy isnt looking at the capacity its looking at the cell voltage

the controller dont care id it takes longer for the voltage to drop


the battery ECU also does Ah counting - but I haven't worked out how it calibrates itself for the batteries actual capacity yet

the other advantage with the higher capacity, is that if the car doesn't make use of it, the cells won't get pushed into as high a state of charge as much - which reduces heat and self discharge (both of which are a PITA with nimh)

Simon installed these in his prius a while back, but has since been sold
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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 14 Nov 2014, 03:57

Hmmm.... How do I know if there are any other problems with this NWH10 Prius if the battery pack is out of the vehicle with dead cells? I don't want to spend the $$ for 40 cells so I can find out if it has other issues or not, can anyone think of another way around this problem?

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 14 Nov 2014, 05:30

depends upon the car - have you found one?

usually the battery is still in the car - just not working

you could buy the $10 cable and free computer software to scan the car for error codes.
If there are only battery related ones you could be safe assuming the battery is the only issue
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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 14 Nov 2014, 15:01

The car is the one you put up the e bay link for a few mths back. The battery is out of the car and partially stripped for what I can make out. If I could get hold of a working battery I could just plug it in and check that it drives ok and no fault codes come up. Does the whole system rely on that battery being in place or would I be able to start the eng just off the 12v aux battery. I have a feeling the eng start is a function of the electric drive motors, is that correct?

T1 Terry

EDIT: Can you give me a link to where I can buy the cable and get the software please? Thanks for all your help.
Last edited by T1 Terry on Fri, 14 Nov 2014, 04:03, edited 1 time in total.
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