Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

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coulomb
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by coulomb » Fri, 14 Nov 2014, 18:14

T1 Terry wrote: I have a feeling the eng start is a function of the electric drive motors, is that correct?

Yes, none of the Prius models has a 12 V starter motor.

Only the very mildest of mild hybrids would have a 12 V starter motor.
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sat, 15 Nov 2014, 17:31

T1 Terry wrote:
Can you give me a link to where I can buy the cable and get the software please? Thanks for all your help.



Vagcomm usb obd cable

TECU program and how to use

follow the links to download

you will come to a page that asks to pay some rubbles - don't theres a count down timer at the bottom
when that hits 0, a link for download appears
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1999 Prius - needs batt

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by T1 Terry » Sat, 15 Nov 2014, 20:04

Thankyou sir, much appreciated. do you have any "D"type cells that I could put in this battery pack to at least get it going for a bit?
If/when I get the car I plan to repower it with lithium anyway so the original pack would no longer be needed.... is this correct, or does the lithium pack piggy back onto the original pack similar to the later Prius plug in hybrid mod kits?

T1 Terry
Last edited by T1 Terry on Sat, 15 Nov 2014, 09:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 00:19

there is a new version here:
http://vdiag.net/ptecu3.html

antiscab wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
Can you give me a link to where I can buy the cable and get the software please? Thanks for all your help.



Vagcomm usb obd cable

TECU program and how to use

follow the links to download

you will come to a page that asks to pay some rubbles - don't theres a count down timer at the bottom
when that hits 0, a link for download appears
gtyler

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 01:10

Hi Terry,
   What you do is flatten all the old cells one cell at a time, discharge at maybe 5A until the cell voltage is o.8V, then disconnect the load and do the next. The cells should recover to above 1.1V after standing for a few hours. Any cells that are below 1.1V to start with are probably suspect, but as long as they are not short you will be able to drive the car. charge these a bit first maybe 1 Ah, then do the discharge, same as the others. Change any individual cells that don't bounce back after a discharge. Also check the MAF sensor, often this is the real problem. see https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Mk1_Prius/files and "how to clean a Maf sensor".
   When you have done the whole pack like this the car should start and charge the pack.If you do this it should be ok for a while before you get another turtle, though you will get a few immediatly after doing this. when It starts giving more that 1 turtle a trip run the car backwards and if you have to go forwards do it smartly, don't let it charge, until you get a turtle, then carry on until the car stops going backwards. turn off and re do the battery, but any cells that are below 1.2 volts must be changed.
   Replacement cells come out of another pack that has been thrown out, old pack should be charged and left standing for a few months, any cells that are above 1.27 or so can be used.
gtyler

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 01:17

Matt, do you still want a femail connector for the orange battery connector? the one out the battery ECU? I have a faulty ECU.
antiscab wrote: more progress,

most of the electronics mounted to the battery box - new holes drilled for the battery ECU wires

Image

Image
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 01:57

Matt, this may interest you, seems to have the wiring of that connector.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Mk1 ... l%20Scans/
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 04:28

T1 Terry wrote:do you have any "D"type cells that I could put in this battery pack to at least get it going for a bit?
If/when I get the car I plan to repower it with lithium anyway so the original pack would no longer be needed....



I have heaps - problem is they're all nearly 20 years old, so won't be particularly reliable

I'm happy to send over as many sticks as you like -- I have around 120

plan with the lithium pack is to replace the original battery - but this is still in a very much prototype stage, I wouldn't bank on it being available in the near future.

In other news - today I was given another prius

my latest revelation is that there are several different versions of the Battery ECU that originally came with the NHW10

I'm hoping the differences are all software, but it has prodded me more in the direction of trying to get the battery ECU program modified rather than trying to come up with a work around that works reliabley with all battery ECU versions
Matt
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2007 vectrix - 145'000km
1998 Prius - needs batt
1999 Prius - needs batt

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 04:38

gtyler54 wrote: Hi Terry,
   What you do is flatten all the old cells one cell at a time, discharge at maybe 5A until the cell voltage is o.8V, then disconnect the load and do the next. The cells should recover to above 1.1V after standing for a few hours. Any cells that are below 1.1V to start with are probably suspect, but as long as they are not short you will be able to drive the car. charge these a bit first maybe 1 Ah, then do the discharge, same as the others. Change any individual cells that don't bounce back after a discharge. Also check the MAF sensor, often this is the real problem. see https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Mk1_Prius/files and "how to clean a Maf sensor".
   When you have done the whole pack like this the car should start and charge the pack.If you do this it should be ok for a while before you get another turtle, though you will get a few immediatly after doing this. when It starts giving more that 1 turtle a trip run the car backwards and if you have to go forwards do it smartly, don't let it charge, until you get a turtle, then carry on until the car stops going backwards. turn off and re do the battery, but any cells that are below 1.2 volts must be changed.
   Replacement cells come out of another pack that has been thrown out, old pack should be charged and left standing for a few months, any cells that are above 1.27 or so can be used.

Thanks for the info and the links, I can't seem to get the Yahoo groups one up but I found a few other forums with similar information regarding the MAF sensor and as an ex motor mechanic I should be able to fault find the eng problems if it has any, the rest of the ECU stuff that controls the battery pack and electric motors is another story entirely Image
I doubt the seller will allow me to take the battery pack home to play with it so it might be one of those fingers crossed and hope for the best type purchases.
The other possible is an ex taxi in the Brisbane area, 2008 model but with 600,000kms on the clock it's been around a bit and around 4 times the price by the time I fly up there to drive it home.

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 04:43

antiscab wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:do you have any "D"type cells that I could put in this battery pack to at least get it going for a bit?
If/when I get the car I plan to repower it with lithium anyway so the original pack would no longer be needed....



I have heaps - problem is they're all nearly 20 years old, so won't be particularly reliable

I'm happy to send over as many sticks as you like -- I have around 120

plan with the lithium pack is to replace the original battery - but this is still in a very much prototype stage, I wouldn't bank on it being available in the near future.

In other news - today I was given another prius

my latest revelation is that there are several different versions of the Battery ECU that originally came with the NHW10

I'm hoping the differences are all software, but it has prodded me more in the direction of trying to get the battery ECU program modified rather than trying to come up with a work around that works reliabley with all battery ECU versions

This NWH10 is sounding more like the go if I can get some s/h cells to put into it to at least get it to run. If there are 40 cells in pack, is there an average number that will have been reverse charged and killed? Or is it a bit of lottery thing, ya buys ya ticket and takes ya chances Image

T1 Terry
EDIT: How do you manage to get them given to you? Are you willing to share that secret   Image
Last edited by T1 Terry on Sat, 15 Nov 2014, 17:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 05:07

gtyler54 wrote: Matt, do you still want a femail connector for the orange battery connector? the one out the battery ECU? I have a faulty ECU.


ooo, yes please - PM sent
Matt
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1998 Prius - needs batt
1999 Prius - needs batt

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by antiscab » Sun, 16 Nov 2014, 05:58

T1 Terry wrote: How do you manage to get them given to you? Are you willing to share that secret   


I put a wanted ad up on gumtree

someone with 4 NHW10's contacted me - his wife wanted one gone so there would be space to park her car in the shade

he preferred to give me one rather than see it go to a crusher

it's not in working condition, but a new battery and it should be ok :p
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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by gtyler54 » Mon, 17 Nov 2014, 06:32

How many bad cells will a car have? Actually, often there will be none that will stop you driving it. It depends on how the pack has been treated. If, when a battery is failing, the car is driven into the ground most of the cells can be leaking electrolyte.
What happens is this;
1) car starts having turtles.
2) because Toyota won't service them the owner keeps on using it after
   the fault warning triangle appears.
3) every time a car has a turtle the ECU SOC counter is reset to zero   (shown by the MFD indicating 20% orange bar in the battery symbol), even when it has just charged the battery a minute ago.
4) car now charges the pack to full. (pack is actually full to start with, maybe only 1 empty cell that caused the turtle.) and all the good cells overheat because they have been overcharged, energy has nowhere to go.
5) hot cells cause the thermistors to change resistance, battery ECU disconnects the battery but engine still runs, car will not go.
6) Driver learns that restarting the car now lets him drive it again.so this carries on, pack is wrecked from overheating.

If the driver is more careful then he stops driving it at the first triangle. If you get the car at this stage and you may just equalize the charge on the cells and drive it for a month or so until you get another turtle. If you do the same it will go for another month.
   If you have a scanner and you find which cell is causing the problem and change that each time the car will improve every time you change one. our first car that we bought with a faulty pack in 2007 is still going fine on the old pack.
gtyler

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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 17 Nov 2014, 13:18

So the battery management has no sensing of a high cell, just a low cell or is it low total pack voltage it senses?

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Post by gtyler54 » Sat, 22 Nov 2014, 21:01

yes, basically senses total pack voltage (seems to stop pack discharge at 240V), any cell below 1V and keeps track of the state of charge from the current in/out. I think it may also stop charging at about 380V, but that will only happen on a equalization charge initiated from the scanner
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Post by antiscab » Sat, 22 Nov 2014, 22:23

gtyler54 wrote: I think it may also stop charging at about 380V, but that will only happen on a equalization charge initiated from the scanner


I can confirm this - regen shuts down at 375 - 380v (I haven't been able to nail down the exact number)

I hit this on nearly every hard regen, due to the internal resistance of my lithium battery being too high.

discharge also stops when any one block voltage falls below 14v, or 1v below the average
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Post by antiscab » Sat, 22 Nov 2014, 22:37

T1 Terry wrote: So the battery management has no sensing of a high cell, just a low cell or is it low total pack voltage it senses?


the car measures the battery voltage in 20 blocks

it does shut down for low block voltage (about 14v in practice), but basically ignores high block voltage.
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Post by gtyler54 » Fri, 05 Dec 2014, 00:17

Got to go to Auckland tomorrow , picking up my 5th NHW10....
This one I got for free.
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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 05 Dec 2014, 00:35

What will that cost to get back over here? It's costing me around the $700 mark to get this 2008 Prius just from Brisbane to here so it can't be cheap getting one over from New Zealand.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Fri, 05 Dec 2014, 00:45

T1 Terry wrote: What will that cost to get back over here? It's costing me around the $700 mark to get this 2008 Prius just from Brisbane to here so it can't be cheap getting one over from New Zealand.

T1 Terry


look at where he is under his name

Location: Hamilton NZ

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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 05 Dec 2014, 02:03

Adverse Effects wrote:
T1 Terry wrote: What will that cost to get back over here? It's costing me around the $700 mark to get this 2008 Prius just from Brisbane to here so it can't be cheap getting one over from New Zealand.

T1 Terry


look at where he is under his name

Location: Hamilton NZ


Image   Image Ummm..... Had a look on Google maps and it's closer than from here to Sydney Image

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 05 Dec 2014, 04:57

I just had someone contact me from the sunshine coast - he has 4 x nhw10

I also got a quote on brand new NHW10 sticks - US$2000 + shipping (US$426 to perth by DHL)
If you were that way inclined

I just paid AUS$3300 (inc shipping) for 110 x A123 20Ah cells, so that's what my second prototype is going to be using
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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 05 Dec 2014, 15:03

I think that may be the same guy who rang me regarding my ad on Gumtree looking for a project NWH10. He was really only after information so I guided him here to the forum. I can probably pick that one up in Sydney for $1000 but I've since bought a 2008 model ex taxi from the sunshine coast for $2,600 delivered to the door so I'm not sure I'd get away with another project car in the front yard Image Well, not until I get this one going and the wife driving it anyway

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Post by antiscab » Mon, 19 Jan 2015, 04:04

a quick update:

heat is becoming an issue for the GBS cells

It doesn't seem to matter how long the car bakes in the sun for, I haven't seen the batteries start a trip above 30 deg C all summer

however, while driving (and actively discharging the battery at between 20 and 35A continuous) the battery slowly heats up to 40 deg C.
at this point the car begins reducing the max regen current limit which is a shame.
it gets reduced to 0 at around 46 deg C

I haven't seen the battery go above 48 deg C

the ~18 deg C temp rise from driving around is something I suspect I won't be seeing in the A123 cells

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Post by Simon » Fri, 23 Jan 2015, 21:51

Antiscab could it be the stacked arrangement of the battery pack contributing to the heat buildup? Toyota changed their Prius packs to a single layer of cells with the NHW11.

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