Johny's Electric Vogue

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Post by weber » Mon, 10 Jun 2013, 22:23

Renard wrote:Nice diagram.
I was calculating the maximum hole diameter. You've calculated the minimum.
And the one that matters for bolt clearance is? Image
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 11 Jun 2013, 01:17

weber wrote: Call me a butcher, but I'd just clamp the flange in a vice ... hack... drill... roughly ....
Image

For the record, Weber recently shaved off his beard. Saving me a bit more editing Image

But also, Weber is a vegetarian, so I really can't call him a butcher.

My apologies to Johny, for derailing a wonderful build thread. But sometimes, on a Queens birthday evening, a man just can't help himself   Image
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 10 Jun 2013, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by acmotor » Tue, 11 Jun 2013, 03:31

Johny, I though there was an assurance that the emotor coupling and UJ flange all ran true and the tailshaft complete assembly had been balanced ? yet there is still a question of that bolt up.
Perhaps re-machine the emotor shaft coupling so that the spiggot is a good fit to UJ yoke including the corner radiuses so there is not a question of faces mating up and no dependence on bolts for alignment at all.
Check UJ yoke face has no burs or dents, particularly around the weber butcher holes.Image
A flat file dress-up may be required before a total replacement of UJ yoke.

You'll need to check it out, try 180 deg shift, adjusting shims etc.... but I still have concerns about the emotor bearings / rotor inertia / torque ripple etc. i.e. nothing to do with tail shaft.

I guess we'll just have to put up with the 'fill in' posts 'till you get the live vibration monitoring done. Image

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Post by weber » Tue, 11 Jun 2013, 17:38

Ah yes -- the inside-corner radius where the spigot departs from the flange -- good thinking acmotor. The un-clearanced bolt holes combined with a sloppy-but-square-cornered socket in the motor coupler flange could be causing the motor coupler flange to be riding part way up that spigot radius on one side, thereby causing an angular misalignment, not merely a parallel offset. And such an angular misalignment could become a significant offset by the time you get out to the yoke ears.

An offlist discussion with Renard made me realise that, while the diameter of the clearance hole does not depend on the thickness of the material, I should have put some provisos on the use of the drill-wobble precision butchering method. Namely that you shouldn't use it where the thickness of the material is more than about half the diameter of the drill, and you shouldn't use it to increase the hole diameter by more than about 10% (25 degree wobble), otherwise there is a risk that the head of the bolt (or a nut or washer) will not have enough material immediately under it. And Johny's case falls outside one of these provisos as the flange appears to be 1/4" (6.35 mm) and we're talking about a 10 mm drill.

And yes acmotor, such a hole should of course be deburred like any other. I'm sure Johny's well aware of deburring.

And yes, if Johny was to try peening at two or three widely spaced points on the motor coupler flange, to tighten up the spigot-socket, then he should of course dress the flange back to flat with a file afterwards, and restore the radius (or add it if there wasn't one before). What has he got to lose? If it doesn't work he would have had to make a new coupler from scratch anyway, [Edit: or re-machine it] as you suggested.

BTW, please see my recent edit at the start of my original "call me a butcher" post.
Last edited by weber on Wed, 12 Jun 2013, 05:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Jun 2013, 15:10

Previous page - monologue:
Johny wrote:...
So I pulled the tailshaft out completely, held the tailshaft as best I could in my workmate, and hand drilled the holes out to 10mm - the biggest drill I had. I cleaned up the facing side of the flange with a 1/2 inch drill bit and ensured there were no burrs.
In this post on the previous page to this one.


Edit: Fixed link to post
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 12 Jun 2013, 06:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 12 Jun 2013, 16:29

OK, OK, you say there are no burrs ! Image
All cards are still on the table until the problem is sorted.
The perils of floating the issue on a forum.
Now what of the actual seating of the spiggot ? Can you confirm there is no issue there ?
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Post by Johny » Wed, 12 Jun 2013, 17:21

acmotor wrote:Now what of the actual seating of the spiggot ? Can you confirm there is no issue there ?
I have put this tail shaft on four or more times now. It's in my nature to be careful so each time I am about to "nip up" the four bolts, I rotate to tailshaft manually to confirm it's seated OK. Not one of these times have I noticed anything unusual about the way the flanges line up. Nor have I seen any gap that would indicate riding up on the spigot. Then I tighten the bolts progressively in a cross pattern.
BUT there obviously is something wrong.

My thoughts now are.
I'll drill the holes out to about 10.5mm (using correctly sized drill). If the bolts still foul the flange holes I'll take the holes out to 11mm.
As has been said, I can always get a new coupler made and procure a new UJ flange so nothing much lost.

I don't expect that will fix the problem completely but my hopes would be that it gets to the same point as with the two M8 bolts that are currently holding the front in.

Then I will either:
1. Get Jeff with his site balancing gear to do an on site balance using axle stands.
OR
2. Take the driveshaft and coupler back to PB and try to figure out some way to compensate for the missing key and attempt to get the couple and tailshaft balanced together. This gets difficult as the rotor/coupler/key were all balanced together.

Any actual work on this has been deferred pending my other half fully recovering and me "catching" up on the chores that should have been done this past long weekend. I'm driving the car currently and just keeping it below the "bad" threshold. Now that the heater works and the vibration is much attenuated, it's #$%^load of fun to drive.
I made it to work at 2.95AH one dat last week and had to make to dreadful decision whether to reverse into my parking spot and take it over 3.0AH - I did. So a real trip to work which takes 1/2 hour (15 km) would require 1 Hr of charge - charge rate is 3AH.

I will talk to PB this week and see what they think about the above potential courses of action.

It's been amusing reading weber and Renard's hole enlargement discussion. I don't mind at all this thread being used for anything - that's what it's for - discussion. My build thread is my blog.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 19 Jun 2013, 16:05

At 4 degrees C this morning my pack sagged to the lowest I have seen when fully charged. It went down to 576 volts at 45 Amps (just over 2C - 3.0V/cell)). After another 15 minutes of travel it was only sagging to 584 at 45 Amps (3.04V/cell). When I first started driving it a couple of months ago in 20 something degree temperatures the sag at the same spot in my commute was around 610 volts (3.17/cell).

Also, where I could just get to work in 3AH - with some us of the heater and temp.sag it cost me 4AH this morning.

Fortunately for me, Melbourne only gets a little bit colder than this morning's temperature.

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 19 Jun 2013, 17:57

Is that ambient 4deg C or pack 4deg C ?
What was the temperature when charging was completed ?

So you see a 5% drop in cell voltage for a 15deg drop in temperature.
That's not bad. Was it an observation or a concern ?

You'll have to move the old girl into the lounge room on winter nights. At least there will be no fumes or oil drips. Image
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Post by Johny » Wed, 19 Jun 2013, 18:05

acmotor wrote: Is that ambient 4deg C or pack 4deg C ?
What was the temperature when charging was completed ?
I haven't driven it for a few days so it was charged a while back. So ambient and pack temp. were about the same.
So you see a 5% drop in cell voltage for a 15deg drop in temperature.
That's not bad. Was it an observation or a concern ?
Just observation. It might be helpful to someone.
You'll have to move the old girl into the lounge room on winter nights. At least there will be no fumes or oil drips. Image
Ha! The other old girl might have an opinion on that. Image
I'm trying to time the end of charge so there is about an hour of bypass before it stops and have charger turn fully off just before I drive it. Not sure which is worse. Holding cells at 3.68V for an hour or so - or running with them colder. Actually since I leave at 8:30 and low tarrif ends at 7:00 I'd have to float packs for 1.5 hours. That gives me about 10W per pack to heat the packs a little. Hmm not worth it me thinks.

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Post by jonescg » Wed, 19 Jun 2013, 18:13

You could sit your packs on an electric blanket... In some ways we live in a unique climate. Our winters are cool but not cold, and out summers are hot. So we need cells which can work in a big range of temperatures. setting up a cell heating system would be useful for about 3 months of the year, while a cell cooling system will be of more use for about 6 months of the year.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 19 Jun 2013, 18:24

jonescg wrote: You could sit your packs on an electric blanket.
Yes, there was someone on the forum who bought dog whelping electric blankets for their lead-acid pack. They are about 20W and I think they ran low voltage and a plugpack. If I had designed it on it would be a possibility but everything is too tight (space) now. The controller tray in the engine bay only clears the top of the lower subpacks by 15-20mm. There is also something a bit suss about an energy efficient car needing comfort heating overnight.
In some ways we live in a unique climate. Our winters are cool but not cold, and out summers are hot. So we need cells which can work in a big range of temperatures. setting up a cell heating system would be useful for about 3 months of the year, while a cell cooling system will be of more use for about 6 months of the year.
With Melbourne there are less than 10 days over 40deg C so unless I can get under-cover parking I'll take my ICE car (classic on club plates) those days (I have to drive it sometime).

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Post by 4Springs » Thu, 20 Jun 2013, 00:39

Here is a link to my post on battery warmers:
Battery Warmers
They have been working well for me, but had to be designed into the battery boxes from the start.
I was wondering whether I should keep them when I go to lithiums - it sounds like it might be an idea? Was -1.3°C outside this morning, but the batteries were nice and toasty at about 20°C.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 20 Jun 2013, 15:58

4Springs wrote:I was wondering whether I should keep them when I go to lithiums - it sounds like it might be an idea?.
I have an opinion on that. YES YES YES. At -10deg C LiFePO4 are downrated to around 60% capacity. The sag increases noticably from 10deg C down and the scuttlebut is that you shouldn't charge them (at high current) below 0deg C.
Thanks for the link.

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Post by jonescg » Thu, 20 Jun 2013, 16:35

I need a Peltier Effect electric blanket. One which cools in the long Perth summer Image
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Post by Johny » Thu, 20 Jun 2013, 16:48

jonescg wrote: I need a Peltier Effect electric blanket. One which cools in the long Perth summer Image
Nah - just use a mister/sprayer like they have in some fruit and veg shops.
Image

Pfssst!

I did go to some trouble to heat insulate my bonnet and boot lid but high ambient temps will still be an issue.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 21 Jun 2013, 16:35

Johny - a few days ago wrote: At 4 degrees C this morning my pack sagged to the lowest I have seen when fully charged. It went down to 576 volts at 45 Amps (just over 2C - 3.0V/cell)).
Last night I changed the charge time to start at 3AM and stop at 8:30AM. That allowed about 2 to 3 hours of bypass on the cells. At 20 Ohms per cell there would be about 10 Watts of heat per sub-pack.
The sag at exactly the same place in my trip at 45 Amps was now only down to 590 Volts (3.07V/cell). Since this morning was slightly colder than three days ago it shows that this level of heating may help.

I also pre-heated the cabin with a hair drier for about 8 minutes this morning which helped emormously. I'll start looking at mounting a small mains powered heater in the boot that directs into the cabin ah-la Leaf/iMiev. The Vogue can fit a 2 inch duct around each side of the boot area into the cabin just behind the rear doors. I looked at that area when I was trimming the car with an eye to venting cabin air when parked on hot days. It could do both. Yet another future modification.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 18:33

HEATER WOES
-----------
I have good news and bad news.

Good news #1 is that I know that I can drive for at least 25 minutes withOUT the DC-DCs running into my 9AH 12V battery. In the daytime anyway.

Good new #2 is that I now also know that the NS syle BS88 16A offset blade industrial fuses that feed +300V and -300V into the Heater and DC-DC, simultaneuously blow and safely disconnect the 600VDC from both the afore-mentioned. When replaced with 20A (that's all I had) they safely blew again. (I crushed one in a vise after it blew and the sand had nicely fused to break the Arc).

The bad news.
My heater stopped again rather dramatically. It had worked for about 3 days then one morning last week - no heat. After about 12 minutes of driving I decided that the 12V indicators were a fraction slow and checked the 12V battery - 12.0 volts - not good. There was no power to the DC-DCs. Neither +300V or -300V - which surprized me.

So I went back home because I wasn't carrying spares or even a screwdriver.

I disconnected the heater (funny that), replaced the fuses and DC-DC was back again. 13.6V on 12V battery.

While live (car on) I reconnected the heater -300V all OK, then +300V SPLAT - BUUMPH! Both 20A fuses blew at once.

So I have the heater controller out again. The IGBT AND the Fast recovery diode across the Ceramic element have shorted. It also blew a bit of track off my PCB.

Is PWM controlling a ceramic heater element that hard?

I'm not quite back to Renards's solution but getting close (contactor).

I'm going to bring the while thing to work and measure the inductance of wires and element then one of the HW engineers is going to do a simulation for me to see what could be going wrong.
The only thing I didn't change last time was to back the gate resistor off as Zeva suggested. I was still running 10 Ohms which results in stupidly fast on/off times for the 110Hz PWM I'm running.

The current circuit.
Image

The bottom of the board.
The non-epoxy board is NOT the problem even though I admit that it would have been better as epoxy PCB. I had clear coated it and none of the DC high voltage paths had arced. The black is the blown track. I had run wires and soldered along the high current paths. The circled bit must have been the weakness. It's the anode end of the RHRP15120 fast recovery diode.
Image

Edit: withOUT
Edit: Replaced image with one from blog
Last edited by Johny on Tue, 25 Jun 2013, 10:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:05

Why do you need that fast recovery diode ?
IGBT already has its own protection diode.
Isn't the heater almost totally resistive ?
If the diode did conduct and wasn't clear before the igbt turned on then bang. (Zeva's softer turn on ?) Mind you, it could just have been an PCB failure.

How do you shut the heater off if there is an IGBT short ?

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Post by Johny » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:25

acmotor wrote: Why do you need that fast recovery diode ?
Belts and braces. The wiring to the element has some inductance.
IGBT already has its own protection diode.
Only across it's own emitter/collector - doesn't handle positive going spikes.
Isn't the heater almost totally resistive ?
I DON'T KNOW! I think so. But evidence would suggest otherwise.
If the diode did conduct and wasn't clear before the igbt turned on then bang. (Zeva's softer turn on ?) Mind you, it could just have been an PCB failure.
Not PCB failure. No carbonisation other than surface - easily wiped off. Between C and E of IGBT is "clean" amongst other places.
How do you shut the heater off if there is an IGBT short ?
Unplug the damned thing!

Someone here suggested that the fast recovery diode was dissipating heat and failed because of that (no heatsink). The discolouration to the left of my red circle is under the diode. No room for heatsink under the 1uF. If there is enough back-EMF to heat the diode then 1uF isn't enough anyway.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:28

Snubber and diode.
Image

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Post by evric » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:39

I blew up an electronic relay when I didn't have a diode across the Ceramic Element. Now I have the diode and no more problems. btw... electronic relay from Futurlec (MOSFET)
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Post by Johny » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:45

evric wrote: I blew up an electronic relay when I didn't have a diode across the Ceramic Element. Now I have the diode and no more problems. btw... electronic relay from Futurlec (MOSFET)
HA! Extremly useful info evric. So they are inductive. Out of curiosity what was the SSR voltage rating and what was the supply voltage?

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Post by evric » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:49

SSR: Futurlec SSRDC200V40A: Rated at 200Volts 40Amps(with heatsink) and the EV is running on 130V.
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Post by Johny » Mon, 24 Jun 2013, 20:52

Oh Ah! Hardware guy here asked how capacitive these ceramic elements are?
That may explain why no-one PWM controls them??? Another thing to try to measure. I may have to switch at a slow enougth rate as not to exceed device ratings. Doesn't explain why reverse diode blew but evric may have done that. Inductive and capacitive? Inductive wiring, capacitive element = resonance.
Meandering here...
Has ANYONE ever seen a PWM controlled ceramic element gizmo anywhere in the world?

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