Johny's Electric Vogue

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
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a4x4kiwi
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Wed, 22 May 2013, 19:18

Yes, I believe so. I am searching for a reference.

Found some interesting links along the way
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_hel ... pshaft.htm

http://armyordnance.tpub.com/Od10066/Od100660012.htm

Bingo.

See the paragraph above image 6.
http://arrc.ebscohost.com/ebsco_static/ ... locity.htm
Last edited by a4x4kiwi on Wed, 22 May 2013, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by a4x4kiwi » Wed, 22 May 2013, 19:53

Actually Can I retract the yes, to firmly sitting on the fence?
The angle determines the speed-up & slow-down of the shaft. Not so sure about the size of the X.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 20:02

a4x4kiwi wrote: Actually Can I retract the yes, to firmly sitting on the fence?
The angle determines the speed-up & slow-down of the shaft. Not so sure about the size of the X.
Thanks Malcom. Intuitively the size of the joints should be irrelevant as no-matter how big one UJ is with respect to the other, the angles that they operate on remains the same. But I can't say that I am 100% sure either - only that nothing I have read indicates a problem.

On other matters, I have downloaded an Android App that logs the 3 planes of the accelerometer in my phone (Accelero-meter Log). It can save a log file and the log is in 20mS increments. My ruler-on-edge-of-bench-taped-to-phone "twang" test seems to show it can "see" up to about 30 Hz pretty readily (probably higher but I can't twang it higher). Now to figure out how to secure it to the face of the motor. Holding it by hand should be OK as the silicone case should ensure the phone follows the motor with only a slight amount of cushioning.

This will provide a graph of left/right, up/down and in/out vibration.
More data can't hurt.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 20:42

This is what I want. Who's got one of these in Melbourne? (Great link Malcom)
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_hel ... eature.htm

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 22 May 2013, 21:42

Johny wrote: Idon't think it's the back because the vibration always feels massively worse placing hand on underside of motor - but I'm way past ignoring ANY suggestion.


Is the vibration there when the tail shaft is disconnected and the motor is run to the same speed / conditions? How do you know the vibration isn't in the motor and transmitting it TO the drive train?

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Post by Johny » Wed, 22 May 2013, 22:00

EV2Go wrote:
Johny wrote: Idon't think it's the back because the vibration always feels massively worse placing hand on underside of motor - but I'm way past ignoring ANY suggestion.


Is the vibration there when the tail shaft is disconnected and the motor is run to the same speed / conditions? How do you know the vibration isn't in the motor and transmitting it TO the drive train?
Yes. These is a vibration in the motor but it is very small. I have pulled the rotor and had it rebalanced. Curiously there was only a small improvement. The motor-only vibration kicks in around 2000 RPM then fades away and resumes at 4000 RPM. The tail shaft starts lower than that (maybe 1600 RPM) and gets progressively worse with speed. Placing jack and block of wood under the motor appears not to change the vibration at all (allthough I'm going to try this again at 100 km/h).
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 22 May 2013, 12:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 22 May 2013, 22:45

I'm not thinking that the small different in UJ size (talking radius to pivot points) would have a big effect. Even less since the whole shaft is reasonably well aligned in the first place. Not totally ruled out though the tailshaft guys would have flagged that one if it was an issue, hopefully.

I'm still going for the bearing endfloats or rotor inertia when hard coupled to a tailshaft as being a problem.

You mentioned an adjustable rubber seal at the spline. Could experiment with that.
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Post by Johny » Thu, 23 May 2013, 01:14

acmotor wrote:You mentioned an adjustable rubber seal at the spline. Could experiment with that.
I loosened that off as soon as I got home and tried it - no change.

I also checked the chinagraph pencil mark.
I may have hit pay dirt here - it does NOT go all the way round. It misses the whole other side of the shaft yet it's very deep where it hits. What an annoyance that I didn't check that before leaving for work.(Later edit: I now believe that this happened when I sat in the car - stupid)

The accelerometer log basically showed that the motor does not appear to be the source of the vibration. It's really the first time that I've kept my hand on the motor up to 90 km/h and it seems to be the passive recipient of the tail shaft issue.

Tonight I'll return to the china graph test and back it off 5mm from the tail shaft. Then I'll reduce it until it hits. Then I'll test the motor end - or as close as I can get to it - that might be difficult.

So, I've vacillated back to tail shaft deflection.
Last edited by Johny on Thu, 23 May 2013, 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jonescg » Thu, 23 May 2013, 02:01

Elementary dear Watson! Image
Glad you're making progress. However...

The car as an ICE had this vibration. You have since replaced the entire drivetrain from the motor to the diff. And it still vibrates.

Either you got unlucky and replaced a wobbly tailshaft with another wobbly tailshaft, or you have something in the diff or even past the diff generating a wobble.

I'm worried ripping the tailshaft out might yet be a symptom given the vehicle has always done this...
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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 23 May 2013, 02:21

Johny wrote:So, I've vacillated back to tail shaft deflection.
I wouldn't rule it out, but I wouldn't expect massive deflection under no load. If it was tail shaft related I would expect it to get far worse on the road. Stands to reason that with additional weight and load between the motor and the tyres it should deflect more with additional load.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 23 May 2013, 02:24

jonescg wrote:I'm worried ripping the tailshaft out might yet be a symptom given the vehicle has always done this...
Yep - I'm living with that concern as well. I can only follow the science trail as much as possible while keeping that in mind.
I'm going to ensure that the diff. end isn't the contributing part before "ripping" out the tailshaft. Also, the guys who provided it must share some of the responsibility so I'm hoping that re-making it with a larger tube (if it comes to that) won't be too expensive for me.
It's that or a center bearing.

I am still amazed I haven't been able to track down a full drive train vibration analysis place yet. I've made a fair number of phone calls and no-one knows of anywhere except Ford who has the gear. There are industrial places but the cost would be prohibitive.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 23 May 2013, 18:27

I have finished with the chinagraph pencil tests.
Essentially, the closer I move toward the front, driven end of the tailshaft, the more "deflection" I read. The "deflection" matches the motor movement close to the driven end. So it's not really deflection, it's motor movement due to imbalance somewhere.
At no point did I ever see evidence of real deflection increasing with speed (is this another about-face? Yep).

Logically, since the rotor in the motor has been balanced with the coupler, it appears to be the front Universal Joint and Slip-yoke (Sliding Spline) combination.
Image

I rang my mates at Precision Balancing today, and no, the slip-yoke and UJs were NOT included in balancing the tailshaft. (A few of you guys have been telling me this haven't you.)
The 2IC said "Bring it in and we'll figure something out". "So it's possible" says me. "Yeah, we'll figure something out".

Well my part is easy - I whistle now and the tail shaft jumps off the car into my arms (meaning things get easier the more times you do them).

So I'll pull it out this weekend. I'll also take the coupler in case that helps "figure it out".

More news as it breaks.

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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:11

Is the tail shaft reversible? i.e. same flanges both ends. That would give you an even better indication of where the issue is coming from.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:31

EV2Go wrote: Is the tail shaft reversible? i.e. same flanges both ends. That would give you an even better indication of where the issue is coming from.
No unfortunately - hence the discussion about different UJ sizes on each end. You and acmotor think alike...

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Post by weber » Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:38

Wow Johny! I've just read this whole thread from the first mention of the drive train vibration to now. It has all the plot twists and red herrings of an Agatha Christie novel.

The Mystery of the Drive Train
The Pale Horsepower
Vibration on the Orient Express
Evil Under the Car

I feel like Poirot has at last gathered us all into the drawing room (whatever that is), to finally trick the culprit into revealing itself.

So the diff and rear axles are not the only parts common to the EV and ICE drivetrains, as Johny led us to believe.

I think the butler did it. But did he do it because he's eccentric, or because he's unbalanced? Image

Did jonescg solve the mystery here:
viewtopic.php?title=johnys-electric-vog ... 707#p42897
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Post by Johny » Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:01

Jeez I wish I had come up with headings like those along the way. I really ran out of headings for the blog (decided it was getting too negative anyway so stopped blogging about the vibration about a week ago). Can I use the first one when it's solved (yes WHEN)?
So the diff and rear axles are not the only parts common to the EV and ICE drivetrains, as Johny led us to believe.
Ummm - yes they are - almost. They did use the rear UJ but that was replaced when it was an ICE and chasing vibration with no effect. Flanges and tailshaft run true according to dial gauge as well.

Sorry - what did I mislead about? Did I miss something?
Last edited by Johny on Fri, 24 May 2013, 05:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by weber » Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:38

Johny wrote: Jeez I wish I had come up with headings like those along the way. .. Can I use the first one when it's solved (yes WHEN)?
Sure. Be my guest. I just googled an Agatha Christie bibliography and ran down the titles. For those who don't already know (and I hadn't heard of all of these), the original titles from Agatha Christie were:

The Mystery of the Blue Train
The Pale Horse
Murder on the Orient Express
Evil Under the Sun
Johny wrote:
weber wrote:So the diff and rear axles are not the only parts common to the EV and ICE drivetrains, as Johny led us to believe.
Ummm - yes they are - almost. They did use the rear UJ but that was replaced when it was an ICE and chasing vibration with no effect. Flanges and tailshaft run true according to dial gauge as well.

Sorry - what did I mislead about? Did I miss something?

Sorry if I jumped to a conclusion. Are the yokes around the front uni-joint with their spline and flange, original or not?
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Post by Johny » Thu, 23 May 2013, 20:54

weber wrote: Sorry if I jumped to a conclusion. Are the yokes around the front uni-joint with their spline and flange, original or not?
No, not original. All the front stuff is new. They appear to have purchased a slip yoke with Universal Joint as an assembly. They used my rear flange so they didn't have to try to match my diff. flange. When I got my old tail shaft back it still had half the rear UJ hanging off it - like a demented Borg.
[img]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050730214321/memoryalpha/en/images/5/55/Borg_corpses.jpg[/img]
So they replaced the rear UJ as well and only used my rear flange.

I'm really confident that balancing the unit as a whole will fix it.
More confident than:
- Re-balancing the tailshft.
- Balancing the motor's rotor.
- Experimantally stiffening the motor cradle (piece of wood and jack).
- Shimming the rear axle perches to get a less than 0.5 degree flange alignment front to back.

I reckon this is it (again, sigh)! The joke is I really do think this will fix it.

(Uses unrelated pictures to make post more interesting in an effort to match weber's artistic use of titles. Proof reads post in an attempt to stop having to edit every post he creates because of typoes...probably missed something...)

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Post by weber » Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:44

Johny wrote:No, not original. All the front stuff is new. They appear to have purchased a slip yoke with Universal Joint as an assembly.
I borg your pardon. It looks like the yoke's on me.
I reckon this is it (again, sigh)! The joke is I really do think this will fix it.

So do I. Given the chinagraph pencil evidence.
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Post by acmotor » Fri, 24 May 2013, 05:27

Can't you take the whole vehicle to Precision Balancing ? It seems that dealing with just some parts of the system at a time may have caused the problem in the first place.
With any luck the guys will get interested in the EV application and get serious to sort it out.

Balancing even the complete drive shaft is still not the complete picture. The motor/coupling and diff end still matter.

Did they open the sline as part of the original balance ?
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Post by Johny » Fri, 24 May 2013, 13:39

I have already and the guys at PB have had a ride. They can not do a whole vehicle and I haven't found anyone in Melbourne who can. If I could, I would.
I tried to find a full car vibration tester a couple of days ago and mentioned it here.

Edit: Added link
Last edited by Johny on Fri, 24 May 2013, 05:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bladecar » Fri, 24 May 2013, 14:37

Well, it seems that it MUST be the drive shaft.


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Post by Johny » Mon, 27 May 2013, 17:24

Johny wrote: (Thursday 23rd May) I rang my mates at Precision Balancing today, and no, the slip-yoke and UJs were NOT included in balancing the tailshaft. (A few of you guys have been telling me this haven't you.)
The 2IC said "Bring it in and we'll figure something out". "So it's possible" says me. "Yeah, we'll figure something out".
I removed the tailshaft last night and took up up to PB this morning. Keeping in mind that I spoke to the 2nd in command last week, the boss (this morning) said "Yeah that's how we balanced it - as you see it!".
Hmmm.
He indicated he might get me to take the coupler off the motor and bring it up.

Anyway, I left it with him. If it's no good when I finally get it back and put it back on the car, I'll remove it again and try another guy I tracked down during the week that some of the guys on a Commodore forum swear by (I have also spoken to him about the Vogue).

BTW. After I removed the tailshaft (coupler still on the motor), I ran the motor up to 90 km/h (3600 RPM) quickly, (the VFD is still speed limited) and all I heard was the "whoop" of the motor accelerating to speed then just about nothing. No vibration at all.


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Post by StudentEV » Mon, 27 May 2013, 19:52

John I've read most of the thread and haven't had a lot to add, but to my non-mechanical brain the coupler looks like the problem.

Is there a different type of joint/coupler combo you could use to rule it out? If not front and rear then just one to see if there's a difference? I know that would rely on the angles being spot-on so I can't think of anything better than what you have, but it's the only thing I can imagine would be causing vibration anywhere...
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Post by Johny » Mon, 27 May 2013, 20:01

StudentEV wrote: Is there a different type of joint/coupler combo you could use to rule it out?
It's in that vicinity as far as I can see but the slip-yolk and Universal Joint are far more complex as moving parts go. The coupler in my case is just a 38mm shaft to flange adaptor. I could be utterly mistaken, but there is not much there to go wrong. I have checked runout with a dial gauge and the coupler appears to be fine (then again so is everything else). The coupler was also included when the motor's rotor was balanced. (Calling it a "coupler" in my case is a stretch.)

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