seligtype3 1969 Volkswagen Type 3

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 18 Mar 2011, 20:24

After further consideration, the whole assembly would need to be removed to get the motor out wouldn't? The motor would be bolted to a bellhousing/adapter plate with a flywheel bolted to the motor output shaft. A clutch plate and pressure plate bolted to the flywheel and the gearbox input shaft splines in the centre of the clutch plate.
Maybe it the flywheel end plate bolted to the inner face of the frame and the rear mounting plate bolted to the outer face of the frame and with the frame supported under the batteries, the motor cradle bellhousing, flywheel and all could be slid back far enough and then dropped down and out the bottom. It could work.
Won't you need to incorporate plates to bolt up on the battery pack big faces to give enough squish to stop them ballooning? Would just strapping apply enough squish, like stainless strapping bands?

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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 18 Mar 2011, 21:10

[QUOTET1 Terry]=Would just strapping apply enough squish, like stainless strapping bands?

T1 Terry[/quote]

I'd be keen to know if that works as it's a nice lightweight solution. I imagine though you'd need something to spread the load across the face of the cell and then strap it. Still, could work out lighter than a 3mm aluminum plate or even thicker.

I reckon I can get the flywheel, bell, motor assembly to drop clean out the bottom of it all. Will get my CAD on over the weekend! Image
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Post by seligtype3 » Sun, 27 Mar 2011, 00:18

Been back in CAD land mulling over weight distribution. Speaking to those who are unconvinced by the Type 3's original handling I've been swayed back into thinking I should lose the back seat completely and package all 45 cells centrally in the vehicle. This layout has 19 cells flat on the pans and the rest as low and tight as I can arrange them. Intrusion into the load space is minimal and everything will be more central in terms of wiring and packaging various components. Traction circuit will be a couple of metres max. Picture below:

Image

Cells are on order so I can continue to be indecisive until they arrive and then some but I'm liking this direction thus far. Any thoughts?
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Post by seligtype3 » Wed, 30 Mar 2011, 23:40

Image Happy days. A truck arrived at work with my Kostov 17R this morning. Some photos below. It's almost exactly what I was expecting... the inbuilt fan is right up the front which I thought was going to be a plastic one clipped to the back. Mounting holes on the back face are a bonus. 5/16 by the look of them. Anyhow photos will tell all...

Image
ID plate.

Image
Drive end.

Image
Backside.

Image
Side view.

Image
Terminals and M10 hook.
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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 31 Mar 2011, 01:43

I much prefer the idea of using the back seat over wrapping the batteries around the motor.

I like the new designed Kostov motor. One question... the bearing looks to be at the end of the motor and the fan inbetween the bearings, is that right?

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Post by 4Springs » Thu, 31 Mar 2011, 01:49

G'day Jem,
Since you were posting about Kostovs on my page, I thought I'd better visit yours. Looks like we started (at least posting) at around the same time. I thought I was obsessed, but I haven't put in 1/10th of the planning effort that you have! My planned motor/battery mount so far is a single piece of square galvanised tube with a bolt through the middle...
Your Kostov looks completely different to mine. I've been ripped off! Where's my robust rear plate, is that two fans I see, one at each end?? And don't get me started on the colour of the wires, and how neatly yours are tied up!!! The only possible good thing is that yours doesn't include the weight on the plate - aha! it obviously weighs far more than mine!
Seriously though, I don't really care about any of those things, as long as it runs well in my application.
Does yours turn freely by the way? Mine takes a bit of effort to turn, which I wasn't expecting. Not sure, I've never turned a large series wound DC motor by hand before, maybe it is supposed to be like that... I haven't hooked it up to a battery yet to see what it does.

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Christopher.

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Post by seligtype3 » Thu, 31 Mar 2011, 05:08

EV2Go wrote: I much prefer the idea of using the back seat over wrapping the batteries around the motor.

I like the new designed Kostov motor. One question... the bearing looks to be at the end of the motor and the fan inbetween the bearings, is that right?


Thanks for the layout feedback! Much appreciated, every viewpoint is abetting my indecision.

Yep, the fan is behind the drive end plate. Behind the bearing.
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Post by seligtype3 » Thu, 31 Mar 2011, 05:16

4Springs wrote: And don't get me started on the colour of the wires...


Image Yes well. Ha. Your one looks like what I was expecting. It resembles the tech drawing via the EV Works website. As you say, as long as it works, right. Yeah mine is certainly not like turning a free shaft held by bearings but that makes sense. Lots going on in there. I haven't hooked it up yet but I did stick a multimeter on it and turn the shaft by hand, got some minor voltage readings so happy for now. Can't wait to hear it whine!
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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 07 Apr 2011, 03:26

seligtype3 wrote:
EV2Go wrote: I much prefer the idea of using the back seat over wrapping the batteries around the motor.

I like the new designed Kostov motor. One question... the bearing looks to be at the end of the motor and the fan inbetween the bearings, is that right?


Thanks for the layout feedback! Much appreciated, every viewpoint is abetting my indecision.

Yep, the fan is behind the drive end plate. Behind the bearing.
I guess that would make it harder to shorten the motor like my earlier model Kostov, where the fan is after the bearing...

But the good side is the fan is supported between two bearings for a more balanced rotation.
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Post by seligtype3 » Thu, 07 Apr 2011, 03:43

TBS Electronics E-Xpert Pro

Image

It felt like putting an old pet down but I took regretfully to the VW's dash clock and hacked the case to fit the TBS gauge.

It was a nice (not working) timepiece but I'll be happier having my pack and amperage data up front and centre Image
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Post by seligtype3 » Thu, 07 Apr 2011, 04:06

PRIMER

Image

On the less electric side of progress the shell is having its first coat of primer. Nice to see it looking more presentable finally.
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Post by T1 Terry » Thu, 07 Apr 2011, 14:23

A resto and an electric conversion, I'm enjoying watching the progress. Looking good, there must have been a moment of panic when you took to the clock and cut it up, they are getting to be collectors items now. Have you posted any of your build on any of the VW forums, I'm sure there would be a genuine interest in your project.

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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 08 Apr 2011, 05:01

Cheers Terry.

Rear subframe is all clean and freshly painted in chassis black. Now to continue the search for fresh rubber components.

Image

Back to the weight distribution topic I've made a call after talking to the engineer who'll be overseeing the conversion. I'll keep the back seats, keeping the car versatile and more original, and split the pack between the front and rear.

Original weight distribution was 40.8% front so with everything laid out in the master of spreadsheets it's coming in at 45.4% front which according to the engineer will do positive things to handling. A plus.
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Post by richmurphy » Fri, 08 Apr 2011, 23:05

So does that mean your batteries are going in with the motor like your original CAD drawing?

I don't know much about the T3 but if it's similar to the T1 then you'll have a huge amount of extra weight bolted onto the bellhousing. That's before you consider the torque from the motor and even a stock 1600 can warp the gearbox mount so god knows what your Kostov will do to it.

I don't mean to second guess your engineer but it might be worthwhile talking some people on the aussieveedubbers forum - many have done Subaru conversions so they know the ins and outs of more weight and more torque. Here is one solution to the problem (might need to register to see the pics): http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/view ... ?tid=68032

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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 08 Apr 2011, 23:18

richmurphy wrote:...even a stock 1600 can warp the gearbox mount so god knows what your Kostov will do to it.


Excellent point! Thanks for the link. I'll consider that issue and put it the the engineer. I was thinking of redesigning the rear subframe so the battery packs are mechanically separated from the motor and transmission. Hanging from their own mounts in the engine bay. Means maintenance access can be separated too, not lifting a huge pack of lithium and motor out every time.
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Post by richmurphy » Sat, 09 Apr 2011, 00:06

Is it an IRS rear end or swing axle? I'm just wondering if you could stash some batteries either side of the transmission (forward of the diff). Great airflow under there and even better for balance but you'd need to protect them from the elements somehow.

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Post by seligtype3 » Sat, 09 Apr 2011, 04:47

richmurphy wrote: Is it an IRS rear end or swing axle? I'm just wondering if you could stash some batteries either side of the transmission (forward of the diff). Great airflow under there and even better for balance but you'd need to protect them from the elements somehow.


Thanks another good point. I've had the subframe out for a while now and can't remember how much room there is under there. Once I get the suspension and transmission back in I'll suss that out as an option.
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Post by seligtype3 » Sat, 09 Apr 2011, 05:40

TRACTION CIRCUIT v1

Ok here goes... wiring diagram of my proposed traction circuit and relevant 12V control circuits.

Image

Start process would be... ignition ON closes the main contact but a dash switch labelled DRIVE keeps the hall effect pedal open until you're ready to move. I think the Soliton has some sort of lock to stop it engaging when you're foot is already on the pedal so I might not need this. EV2Go, you'll have a better idea as you have one already.
Last edited by seligtype3 on Fri, 08 Apr 2011, 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by seligtype3 » Mon, 11 Apr 2011, 04:34

COUPLING

Image

Spoke to an old friend tonight who has a freshly converted cnc mill. After mulling some more and looking around online I'm interested in pursuing the following combination:

Machine the back of the flywheel flat and create a new 6 bolt pattern with approx 100mm bcd (the original 4 pin pattern is showing some signs of wear so extra bcd will help deal with the kostov torque).

Machine a simple bolt on flange to match and mount it to the kostov shaft with a Trantorque GT or similar.

Image

Will post a drawing of proposed idea soon.

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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 11 Apr 2011, 05:17

Check this page on flywheels of Weber and Coulomb's MX5 build.

As suggested there, I would recommend using a alluminium flywheel to reduce weight as you don't need any reciprocating mass what so ever with an electric motor.

You might even be able to shave a tiny bit more off the already lighten flywheel since you won't ever need to dump the clutch on a motor, you just need to make sure it has sufficent strength that it doesn't buckle under use.

Edit: You can also despense with the starter ring as well, since it is only weight you don't need.
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Post by 4Springs » Tue, 12 Apr 2011, 04:05

Re: TRACTION CIRCUIT v1

Don't forget that NCOP14 requires some kind of interlock to stop you driving away while plugged in.

This drive button... Is it something that you need to switch off at the end of each trip? Or does that relay let go once the ignition is turned off? (I'm not familiar with a "PIN coded relay"). I'm imagining some kind of red button with a latch. You unclip the latch, the button lights up with a high pitched whine, you insert your key as the music builds up, with seconds left on the timer....

Does the Soliton need a precharge resistor?

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Post by seligtype3 » Tue, 12 Apr 2011, 04:12

4Springs wrote: Re: TRACTION CIRCUIT v1

Don't forget that NCOP14 requires some kind of interlock to stop you driving away while plugged in.

This drive button... Is it something that you need to switch off at the end of each trip? Or does that relay let go once the ignition is turned off? (I'm not familiar with a "PIN coded relay"). I'm imagining some kind of red button with a latch. You unclip the latch, the button lights up with a high pitched whine, you insert your key as the music builds up, with seconds left on the timer....

Does the Soliton need a precharge resistor?


Haha... Not quite what I had in mind but you've raised a good point about what happens when you just turn off the ignition. Button would have to disengage too.

The pin code will be for security, type a number into a keypad to close the ignition circuit. The drive button... hmm I'll have to rethink that. Going to a place that deals in switches only this week so I'll see what fun things they can provide.

Soliton has inbuilt precharge I believe.
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Post by 4Springs » Tue, 12 Apr 2011, 04:34

So you don't have a key, you use a PIN instead - Cool!
Sounds like you might want an electrical latch, so that once pressed it stays pressed, until power is disconnected. So you press the drive button once, but can drive until you turn the car off. This could either be a latching button, or a momentary button and a latching relay. I like the sound of a place that sells switches only - I'd be like my wife in a shoe shop...

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Post by seligtype3 » Tue, 12 Apr 2011, 05:34

COUPLING
EV2Go wrote: As suggested there, I would recommend using a alluminium flywheel to reduce weight as you don't need any reciprocating mass what so ever with an electric motor.


Indeedy... Current plan is to get the flywheel machined down to about 5kg. The green one in the below pic indicates what it'll look like post machining.

Image

Current plan with the Trantorque coupling looks like this. Yellow bit is machined aluminium bolted with 6 x M8 bolts into the back of the lightened flywheel.
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Post by EV2Go » Tue, 12 Apr 2011, 21:38

I think I would use a taperlock like W & C in place of the transtorque, just because it would offer more regidity on the motor shaft.

I wouldn't build the taperlock into the flywheel like them though, I would build it into the hub that the flywheel bolts to like you have in your pic.

I would also use a alloy flywheel over a machined iron or steel one. I have played around with machining flywheels before, and even after you machine the crap out of it you probably still wont get as light as alloy.

Edit: I still think that idea I proposed to W & C has merrit. Go to the wreckers and pick up an old crank that has a unrepairable spun bearing damage, chop the flywheel end off and machine it to suit the taper lock.

That way you can buy an off the shelf flywheel to suit the crank bolt pattern.
Last edited by EV2Go on Tue, 12 Apr 2011, 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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