seligtype3 1969 Volkswagen Type 3

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
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seligtype3
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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 05:10

Hello everybody,



I'll try to keep this first post updated with the correct specs and project progress.





1. INTRODUCTION



Donor vehicle is a 1969 VW Type 3 Squareback.



Image



It was on the road until about August 2010, then came a tricky logistical operation to get it into the workshop...



Image



The front door was the narrowest and most troublesome point in the end.



A few slow months later it sits parked in the shop waiting for me to finish sand blasting do some not too major (fingers crossed) rust surgery.



Image



Current state as of disrepair looks like this... primer coat going on.



Image



The nights of seemingly endless research continue...





2. CURRENT COMPONENTS - Waiting to be installed.



Version 3.2

------------------------

Kostov 17R

EVnetics Soliton Junior

45 x 160Ah TS

EV Works BMS - Thinking I might skip the BMS for now.

Elcon Charger from EV Power

Original 4 speed transmission

Adapter plate - CEVA Aircooled VW Plate





3. PRIMARY PROJECT OBJECTIVES



Range >100km @80% discharge

Inner city light trade vehicle

Keep kerb weight under original 1035kg. UPDATE:. Will be about 1135kg.

10A charge, got 3-phase in the shop but needs to charge anywhere.



Thanks for the forum!



Jem

Last edited by seligtype3 on Thu, 30 Aug 2012, 15:18, edited 1 time in total.
Restoring and converting a 1969 VW Type 3 Variant.

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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 13:13

I'll be watching this one with interest Jem, I've always wanted to convert a kombi. I love the square back, such a practical unit, no idea why the stopped making them. Sadly my last one vanished from a roadside breakdown in Tassie many moons ago, never found where it went too.
Good luck with the project.

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Post by woody » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 13:23

Hi Jem & Welcome!

There's another 60s VW conversion on this forum by a US university - it's probably more than 6 months ago so you'd need to use advanced search to find it.
There's also a Sydney Beetle DC conversion which is immaculate, but not on this forum, PM me for the photos I have.

Tritium Wavesculpter can use up to 400V nominal, so instead of 45 x 180s you could go about 130 x 60s for the same money (except more BMS modules). Either way peaks at about 160kW electrical.

I assume you're keeping the gearbox, in which case you'll want a motor which can spin as fastvas the gearbox can take :-)

very nice photos BTW.
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Post by coulomb » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 13:44

seligtype3 wrote:
Range >120km @80% discharge
Ok, that will be a challenge. Though if there is typically very little freeway driving in that 120 km, it will be a bit easier.
Keep kerb weight under original 1035kg.
Ah. That's not too hard, but in combination with your range goal, the two will be very hard to achieve together.

You'll need a Lithium battery pack to get the range, and even through it's about 1/3 the weight of lead acid, it will still weigh some 300 kg, and you are unlikely to remove over 360 kg of engine, exhaust, fuel tank, etc.
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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 13:52

woody wrote: Tritium Wavesculpter can use up to 400V nominal, so instead of 45 x 180s you could go about 130 x 60s for the same money (except more BMS modules). Either way peaks at about 160kW electrical.


Thanks Woody.

A pack of 130x60Ah will get me the 400V, is that likely to increase or decrease overall range?

Cheers
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Post by EV2Go » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 15:48

Thought you were in England with the bricked roads and old buildings till I spoted you were in Melbourne.

Always kind of liked the idea of a Type 3 ever since I saw a customer fit a Rover V8 into the back of one, but never put it on the serious list for a conversion (both the Rover V8s don't have much performance potential).

45*180Ah = 8100Ah
130*60Ah = 7800Ah so its close, 135 would equal it, but take you to 432v nominal, 486v @ 3.6v fully charged.

Think of it as 1/3 the battery capacity (180Ah / 3 = 60), but 3 times as many batteries. Only difference is you now have 3 times the voltage because it is 130 * 3.2v instead of 45 * 3.2v
Last edited by EV2Go on Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 04:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 16:02

seligtype3 wrote:A pack of 130x60Ah will get me the 400V, is that likely to increase or decrease overall range?
Marginally increase range due to lower cable and controller losses. Also the cabling will be lighter and easier with higher voltage.

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Post by 7circle » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 17:50

Here is table of diferent Cells from TS and CALB
Type     Ah     kg     lb     H+T     H     W     D     V-T     VT     Ah/L
TS     40     1.6     3.53     190     188     116     46     1.003     0.011     39.87
CALB     40     1.5     3.31     181     179     115     46     0.947     0.011     42.24
TS     60     2.3     5.07     203     200     115     61     1.403     0.021     42.77
CALB     60     2.2     4.85     219     215     142     50     1.527     0.028     39.31
TS     160     5.6     12.35     280     276     209     65     3.749     0.054     42.67
CALB     180     5.61     12.36     279     275     182     71     3.554     0.052     50.65
TS     200     7.39     16.3     280     276     183     100     5.051     0.073     39.6
CALB     400     14.3     31.53     283     275     449     71     8.767     0.255     45.63
The Last value Ah/L is interesing and the 180Ah CALB (Sky-Energy) Cells are the best.

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Post by 7circle » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 17:57

Have in a higher Voltage motor may save significant weight aswell.

Trying to cruise at 80KM/h at 120V compared to 360V is interesting difference for the motor type and loss in it.

Its number of issues to consider and balance.

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Post by woody » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 18:01

seligtype3 wrote:
woody wrote: Tritium Wavesculpter can use up to 400V nominal, so instead of 45 x 180s you could go about 130 x 60s for the same money (except more BMS modules). Either way peaks at about 160kW electrical.


Thanks Woody.

A pack of 130x60Ah will get me the 400V, is that likely to increase or decrease overall range?

Cheers
135x60Ah should be same range / weight / price, but the main thing the extra voltage gives you is power.

The controller output is not power limited to 165kVA, it is current limited to 300A 3 phase, so if you only give it ~ 144V, it will only be able to output about 55kW :-(

You want to give it 400V to allow it to give you full juice.
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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 19:00


135x60Ah should be same range / weight / price, but the main thing the extra voltage gives you is power.

The controller output is not power limited to 165kVA, it is current limited to 300A 3 phase, so if you only give it ~ 144V, it will only be able to output about 55kW :-(

You want to give it 400V to allow it to give you full juice.
Nice one, you people are amazing.

So based on these ideas would I need to have the 3-phase motor rewound to say 100V or can it remain stock at 400V?
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Post by Catavolt » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 19:55

I can help you there I can supply and rewind to spec a Weg 11kw @ 100v motor for $1750 with encoder or the Teco 7.5kw @ 100v $1850 with encoder both in 132 frame.

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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 20:40

Catavolt wrote: I can help you there I can supply and rewind to spec a Weg 11kw @ 100v motor for $1750 with encoder or the Teco 7.5kw @ 100v $1850 with encoder both in 132 frame.


Hi Catavolt, very interesting... have you got any specs on the 11kW WEG and what it might be capable of?
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Post by Johny » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 20:44

I didn't know that WEG had a aluminium 132 frame in 11kW.
Can you point at details please catavolt.

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Post by Catavolt » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 21:15

The power you get out of it really depends on the controller used and voltage you wind the motor for.
eg: 100v rewind 350-400v controller around 50kw 230nm easily with good air flow. In theory +90kw peak.   

The WEG alloy 9.2kw 132m is really a 11kw derated for Australian market.
Teco also do a 10kw 4p 132m that is really a 11kw (My design when I worked there)

Here is a 132m 4p 100v WEG motor rewound for a Smart Car way overkill the motor only just fits in the engine bay after both drive end shaft and non drive end shafts were cut down.


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Last edited by Catavolt on Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Fri, 26 Nov 2010, 21:24

seligtype3 wrote: So based on these ideas would I need to have the 3-phase motor rewound to say 100V or can it remain stock at 400V?

You would want to get it rewound, or order it in a low voltage form.

If you use a 400 V nominal pack (Wavesculptor absolute maximum voltage is 450 VDC), you'll only be outputting about 282 VAC RMS, which is only 68% of the 415 V the motor is expecting.

You could do as we did and order it in 415 star /240 delta, but then you're only going to get about 3.5x the nominal power from the motor, which won't be enough. You'll want that extra ~ 2.8x to over-voltage (really over-frequency) the motor, to get the 3.5x x 2.8x ~= 10x peak power from it. So ~75 kW from a 7.5 kW continuous motor, ~110 kW from an 11kW motor, and so on.

Tritium James calculated that with our 22 kW 415/240 motor wired for 240 V, with a 390 V pack, we'd get about 75 to 80 kW. So that would be 40 kW or less from an 11 kW continuous motor, possibly as low as 26 kW (!) from a 7.5 kW continuous motor.

Hence the need for rewinding.
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Post by 7circle » Sat, 27 Nov 2010, 00:03

Not sure hoe much room you have once the flat four and gear box is taken out.
You'll then need to decide to use transvers or longnitudal mounted Motor.
I haven't heard of many VW that have scraped the gearbox.

If there's no reverse of other gears then gear leaver linkages are not needed.

Have you got a photo of the rear axle motor and transmission.

Seeing as you've flipped it on its side the chassis cavity space will be easy to inspect.

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Post by 7circle » Sat, 27 Nov 2010, 03:41

Here's a couple of VW on EVALBUM with Induction Motors

http://www.evalbum.com/2865 - Blowm beetle

And Fastback:
Estimates 160Km from 90 60Ah Thunderskies
http://www.evalbum.com/3385
And Blog on conversion:
http://electricfastback.wordpress.com/

Motor: Azure Dynamics/Solectria AC-24LS 3-Phase AC
Controller: Azure Dynamics/Solectria DMOC445
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Post by EV2Go » Sat, 27 Nov 2010, 04:47

What about the Azure motor / controller and Thunderskys etc Who42 has for sale? Seems to be similar to what you are considering at half the retail price.

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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 03 Dec 2010, 02:30

7circle wrote: Not sure hoe much room you have once the flat four and gear box is taken out.
You'll then need to decide to use transvers or longnitudal mounted Motor.
I haven't heard of many VW that have scraped the gearbox.
Hi, I'll be keeping the transmission at this stage. The transaxle configuration looks like it'll be much easier if I keep it. Adapter plate on the mill and then TBC motor bolted on, hanging out behind the rear axle.
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Post by seligtype3 » Fri, 03 Dec 2010, 02:32

EV2Go wrote: What about the Azure motor / controller and Thunderskys etc Who42 has for sale? Seems to be similar to what you are considering at half the retail price.


Hi EV2Go, are there details about this on the forum somewhere or is it elsewhere?

Cheers,

Jem
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Post by EV2Go » Fri, 03 Dec 2010, 04:11

Hi Jem, in the for sale section viewtopic.php?t=2355 click on his member profile for email contact or post in the above thread I'm sure he would get back to you with a contact method.
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Post by seligtype3 » Wed, 08 Dec 2010, 04:55

coulomb wrote:
seligtype3 wrote:
Range >120km @80% discharge
Ok, that will be a challenge. Though if there is typically very little freeway driving in that 120 km, it will be a bit easier.
Ok, so am I being unrealistic thinking I might be able to drive 120km at 100km/h on a 26kWh pack? I may scale my range hopes (battery budget!) down if that's the case. Image or Image?
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Post by seligtype3 » Tue, 14 Dec 2010, 04:34

Updated direction and core parts list:

SEW Eurodrive 7.5kW AC induction motor
Tritium Wavesculptor200
110x 60Ah TS running 352V nominal - 21kWh pack

I get the impression from other posts that range at highway speeds is fairly limited unless you have a massive pack and plenty of weight allowance to spare, aerodynamic roofrack etc Image

Has anyone considered carrying around a little 2000W Honda generator for emergency roadside assist and/or keeping the pack topped up while you stop for lunch?

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Post by 7circle » Tue, 14 Dec 2010, 06:15

You could have a twin pack using a switch over. Thsi would allow good estimation of range. If you a have a cell failure you have the second pack to keep you going. DIY is not always the most reliable system. Auto companies do a lot of testing before we put our hands on there cars.

Or even a trailer.

Sounds like your a craftsman of some sort so having a trailer with a battery pack and a generator could be very useful. The battery pack could be exchangeable from the trailer to the car when a long car only journey is needed and there is space in the rear to fit it.

So say a 26kWh pack in the car as usual and a portable second 26kWh pack in the trailer that can be moved in to the the wagon in less than 36V modules. Say 10 * 36V/60Ah so when fully charged they are under 50V (11 x 3.9 = 42.9V)

You could also use this pack in a second car for the better half, if you have one, or a second car that's not work related, karman Gia or Fastback to keep with Volksies. So you can maximise the investment in the battery pack.

The trailer could have a generator in it and if you go on a really long journey say, the trailer could come along with a 3 x 5kW Generators running on ethanol or bio-diesel if your so inclined.

A 2kW generator will get you recharged over night and add to range while driving. But if cruising at 100 km/h takes 15kW then that is what is worth having. But a single 15kW Genset is very heavy and not as common as 5kW.

A triple genset allows for redundancy if you have a failure to from a cheap Gennie. And they can be put to good use and hired/lent out when not needed.
A 2000W genset is enough to drive most power equipment so may be a multiple of 2000W would be more effective. Each Gennie can add to the DC bus via diodes.

Using a 352V nominal TS pack will need 110 x 3.8V = 418Vdc to charge it to full. So using a genset alone will only output 250Vac x √2 = 353Vdc

Some Gensets have three phase but unlikely at 2000W maybe at 5kW. I'm not that familiar with all the Gensets. I've only noticed that some have a high power 13.5V power output. If they are single phase the ripple would be large.

Actually that would work well as the sag from the gen set would reduce as the cell voltage increases when the cell nears 90% full.

So using the peaks of the ripple from the Genset output through a Single phase rectifier you may reach 400V.

This would allow direct charging using the BMS to cut back current when cells near 90% full.

The SEW 7.5kW induction motor is likely to be pulling more than 7.5kW as you may have it rewired or even rewound for 1/2 or 1/4 of the nominal 415V. And running with lots of air flow will allow maybe 15kW continuous at 200Hz. This is just a guess.

Look forward to seeing your battery layout options.

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