My TZR 250 EV project

Post up a thread for your EV. Progress pics, description and assorted alliteration
GRMarks
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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by GRMarks » Thu, 11 Mar 2010, 04:50

I am just starting on my first EV project which is a 1986 TZR 250 Yamaha.
I got it for $500 from a wrecker, it has a blow engine - just perfect for my needs.
I umed and ared about steel frame or aluminium (I had a choice) but in the end I went for the aluminium as it is lighter and has a bolt on cradle witch adds minimal strength to the frame. The plan is to replace it with a battery box which will add simialar strength (but no dow tubes to get in the way. I want an 8 KW batter pack and storage space under the tank so its going to be a challange but I think I can do it. The motor is an Enertrac hub motor which will give maximum room for the batteries, controller etc.
I plan on using a kelly controller (recomended by Enertrac).
The plan is for 136 Volts to get 140 Kmh or more (enertac has had his test bike to 80 MPH) with a range as close to 140 km (big ask I know) but if I keep the bike airodynamic and the wats per mile (sorry ,USA data) to 115 its possible.
Because the voltage is hi I will need to use 60 AH batteries (as oposed to 100 AH which is lighter per ah). Thunder Sky X 36 LiFePo4. The bike is intended for freeway use so top speed is important along with range, my comute is 60 km per day.
I will add some photos next entry.       
Last edited by GRMarks on Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.
Regards

Glenn Marks

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Post by Richo » Thu, 11 Mar 2010, 06:19

Hi Glenn welcome to AEVA and it sounds like a great project. Image

Just some numbers on your info:
115Wh/mile is 72Wh/km.
36 x 3.2V x 60Ah = 6912Wh total battery capacity.
36 x 3.2V x 60Ah x 3C = 20.7kW continuous battery output.
5529Wh useable capacity.
maximum 92Wh/km for 60km commute.

36 x 3.2V = 115V (less under load)

Hard to estimate range on a bike as there a lot of aerodynamic variations and no data.
If they do get 72Wh/km then range is no problem.
But I may think that your voltage may not be high enough if you require 136V+ to get the speed you want.
Also the TS may suffer if you put them on thier side which could be a problem fitting in a bike.
220 headway cells (44s5p) may be an alternative.
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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by antiscab » Thu, 11 Mar 2010, 12:08

welcome to the forum Glenn :)

kelly 144v controller will take up to 180v.

so 180/3.6 = 50 cells max (more if you bleed the cells down before connecting the controller).

so i would go 50 x 60 Ah cells.

50 x 2.7 = 135V at load
135 * 360A = 48.6kw

use a big enough controller to keep the battery side in current limit for as long as possible. (only really practical from 80kmh onwards)

110kg of battery though, the extra weight will help you deal with the increased unsprung mass (yes this really does knock you around the road).

Matt
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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by GRMarks » Thu, 11 Mar 2010, 13:49

Richo

thanks for the numbers, I am new to this and just used simple calacs I picked up from other posts. Mark from Enertrac used 34 TS 40 AH batteries to get his 80 mph. He is using 3.7 volts per battery for his calcs. The motor has been tested to 144 volts so I am planning on staying below this value for a battery pack.
One thing that has ammused/confused me is the voltage used for battery calcs.   
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Glenn Marks

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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by GRMarks » Thu, 11 Mar 2010, 13:55

antiscab

I was planning on the KLB14401I controller.
I am having lots of trouble fitting 36 60 Ah batteries in the frame let alone 50 !
I want to use the fuel tank area as a storage space - somewhat like a scooter.
I should mention I got my conversion from mile to kilometers wrong. I am aiming on 120 km/h and 120 km range. The range will be the thing that suffers if something must give.
I will try and get some pics up tonight.
Regards

Glenn Marks

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Post by GRMarks » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 01:13

Here is the TZR 250 (with lower faring removed).
Forgot to take a photo befor I started !
Image

With the ICE removed - but lots of oil every where on the lower frame.
Image

After first round of cleaning. Note the bolt on cradle on the ground. This will be replaced with a battery box - no cradle bars in the way.
Image

Stripped back even further and second round of cleaning
Image

I am hopeing to hava a storage space where the petrol tank went
Image

Image

I just purchased a reconditioned front brake disk - looks like new.
Its off a ducatti and much lighter than the old steel one.
Next item will be my hub motor - its on its way from USA - hopefully here in a couple of weeks.

This customs stuff will be interesting - (my first time).
I have noticed that the price of things in OZ are twice that of USA so it seems woth the effort to pay 25% extra (10% currency rate and 15% import and GST) plus freight than pay 100% extra especialy when things are so expensive.

I have to recondition the lower shock linkage - hope to get sealed needle roller bearings to replace the bushes - Yamaha bushes are $500 so this gives me room to move to work something out.
Last edited by GRMarks on Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.
Regards

Glenn Marks

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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by antiscab » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 01:31

looking good :D
GRMarks wrote:
This customs stuff will be interesting - (my first time).
I have noticed that the price of things in OZ are twice that of USA so it seems woth the effort to pay 25% extra (10% currency rate and 15% import and GST) plus freight than pay 100% extra especialy when things are so expensive.


dont forget that unless it goes through post or some other parcel processing company, itll cost AUS$700 on top of those percentage charges. (ive been burnt once)

Matt
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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by Thalass » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 01:41

Nice. I'm going to start a 72v bike conversion when i get back from holidays in July (and by 'start' I mean, start on my motorcycle Ls haha), and hope to get at least 80km/h out of it. Hopefully more, but I'll have to see.

I'll keep an eye on your conversion so I can pinch ideas haha
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

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Post by GRMarks » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 03:17

The hub motor is via USPS (US postal Service) so heres hoping no unexpected charges. Image
Last edited by GRMarks on Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Glenn Marks

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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by antiscab » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 03:46

goodo,

USPS usually goes through Aust Post.

the other terrific thing is that when it goes through post, you have a 50/50 chance of customs not taking notice :D

Matt
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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by Richo » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 15:15

3.7V is for Li-po batteries.
They are lighter and pack more punch but have the life span of lead acid.
LiFePO4 (3.2V) overall work out cheaper in the long run due to the long cycle life.
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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by GRMarks » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 19:37

I think I may have to re-calc my battery pack size then because I want (at least) 100 km range (120 would be better) at freeway speed.

Can someone tell me if re-gen braking counts as a recharge cycle each time its used ?
So if I use the re-gen brake 10 times while commuting to work does that = 11 cycles (1 overnight charge + 10 re-gen) ?
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Glenn Marks

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Post by Richo » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 21:13

Regen doesn't count as a recharge cycle.
The regen is only a small portion of the battery capacity.
But then you wouldn't be using the brakes too often down a freeway either.

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Post by Richo » Fri, 12 Mar 2010, 21:16

GRMarks wrote: all the pics were ment to be big (like the first one) and the last 2 are stuck togther (if only the "Preview Post" function worked).


You can edit the post with the pictures.
Just put an enter or two between the pics when editing.
You could also upload the pics again with the same name but bigger.
That should fix the size.

The preview does work it just is slower when loading photos.
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Post by GRMarks » Sat, 13 Mar 2010, 04:55

Thanks Richo - that looks better.
Regards

Glenn Marks

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Post by GRMarks » Tue, 16 Mar 2010, 03:51

I have sorted out my confusion on batteries and voltage.

Mark from enertrac got his test bike up to 80 MPH on 102 volts (using 3.2 volts for the thunder sky batteries) so my 115 volts should still give me reasonable voltage when the batties are low (2.5 volts X 36 = 90 volts minimum).

By my calcs I will need 80 AH batteries (Thunder sky has no such beast) assumming I can get the wats down to 115 per mile.

Also my wheel/motor arrived today. No import duties either - bonus.
I will have some more pictures soon.

I have to say Mark from enertrac has been realy helpfull and the wheel only took about 2 weeks from placing my order to ariving at my doorstep.
His e-mail response is prompt (which gives confidence when parting with money). I found it best to use elecbike@gmail.com (there is elec.bike@gmail.com but I got no response from this e-mail address)

Last edited by GRMarks on Wed, 17 Mar 2010, 16:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Glenn Marks

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My TZR 250 EV project

Post by PaulWay » Wed, 17 Mar 2010, 04:40

Hi Glenn!

I'm doing roughly the same as you, including ordering a hub motor from Mark at Enertrac and getting a Kelly controller. I'm glad to hear you've had a good experience with him - I like to be sure I get the goods when I'm paying a thousand or two for them! Image

My plan is to buy a larger bike frame - a 750cc or so - and get 30 ThunderSky 100AH batteries. If I can I'll boost that up to 35. I want to be able to do 100km/hr easily and also handle at least a hundred kilometre journey without a recharge. It makes the bike a fair bit heavier, but with the larger frame and the powerful motor this isn't a problem AFAICS.

I'm still trying to work out what I need for the rest of the bike - any tips you have would be appreciated! I'm posting on the Canberra EV site - see http://www.canberraev.org/content/update-1-batteries for my recent post.

Have fun,

Paul

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 17 Mar 2010, 11:24

welcome to the forum Paul,

looks good.

one word of caution, kelly are a bit optimistic when it comes to controller ratings.
their peak A values are right, but their continuous values aren't/

for this motor, go for at least a 800A controller (for 200A/20kw continuous, for when you encounter a stiff head wind and some hill)

do you have a specific frame in mind?

Matt
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Post by PaulWay » Wed, 17 Mar 2010, 23:37

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your words of caution. The 700A Kelly controller is rather expensive - I'm wondering if I can get away with the 400A one (200A continuous).

I was thinking a Suzuki V-Strom or similar - I'd prefer a faired bike so I can cut down on wind resistance. It all depends on what I can actually pick up from a decent wrecker though. I need to find one in Sydney or Canberra to deal with.

Have fun,

Paul


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Post by Electrocycle » Thu, 18 Mar 2010, 00:30

I have a GPX250 frame but it's pretty rough, and missing most of the fairings.

If you want to do 100km/h you'll need a bigger controller than that.

Keep in mind that a 250cc bike with 30kw can only do 170km/h down hill due to wind resistance.
Bikes have a lot of drag, so to do anything over 80km/h you need quite a lot of power.
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Post by antiscab » Thu, 18 Mar 2010, 01:14

that 200A rating for the 400A controller isn't true continuous (at least not in this application).
the true continuous rating of that controller is more like 100A, unless they have improved their designs.

the problem is heat dissipation.
that controller could do 200A continuous, if you could bolt it (with thermal paste) to a big chunk of steel. unless your converting a harley, you aren't likely to have this.

if you are working with a smaller battery, that probably wouldn't be an issue.

if you get a controller thats too small, it will just go into thermal cut-back (reduced power) until it cools down.

a suzuki V-storm is certainly a nice bike.
do note that a bigger bike has more wind resistance, and requires more power to move (you may run into the motors continuous power limit).

Matt
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Post by TimothyForde » Thu, 18 Mar 2010, 23:29

Well you said 136volts so X 100Amps gives you 13,600 watts, well above the 10kw rated continuous of the motor.
Also to play it safe maybe you can heat sink it to your bike frame with some cleaver metal work? After all it really is just a huge aluminium heat sink.

Getting close to the stage of starting my own conversion with this motor, so watching this closely. Just trying to pick the type of frame I should start with and it will be my turn to take the leap.

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Post by GRMarks » Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 03:20

Timothy

136 volts are the thunder sky's charged to 3.7 volts - they quickly drop to 3.2 volts (115 for the pack) multiply that by 100 amp = 11500
and then 80% of that (you will never want to try and get 100%) and you get 9.2 KW. With the kelly controller you can set a maximum voltage so you could set it to 115 volts. If you want to go at freeway speeds you need enough volts when the pack gets low not just when they are fully charged.

Thats my take on it anyway.   
Regards

Glenn Marks

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Post by TimothyForde » Fri, 19 Mar 2010, 04:42

Ah yes I forget that voltage was not as high as you planned, my error.

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Post by GRMarks » Mon, 22 Mar 2010, 03:29

Here is the hub motor with torque arm and intergrated disk brake assembly (and a tyre fitted). The tyre looked to be lower profile when I bought it but on the rim it looks huge. I may have to get another one (dam).
Image

Torque arm on other side (I got the motor with the optional 2 torque arms). The torque arms need to be bent (a little) to fit nicely in the swing arm.
Image

The 2 stainless steel spacers I made on the lathe for the hub motor spacing in the swing arm and also to take up the slack as my axle is slitely smaller than the hole through the motor).
Image

Here are the dodgy looking brackets to hold the torque arms to the swing arm.
Image

Here it is mounted to the swing arm (note that the brackets are to long and hang down belowe the swing arm). I may make (or modify these) to look a little better.
Image

I need to finish reconditioning the swing are linkage bearings and then its onto the battery box.
I was looking around at other motor bike conversions and found a battery box that was relly tall and thin (fitted between the twin spars of the frame) so I am going to pinch this idea and do the same and make it of aluminium plate so it can be the stress member (remeber I am removing the bolt on cradle). To this central battery box I will attach another one each side (3 all up).
I have only done some rough meseurements but with this aproach I might be able to fot 36 X 100 ah batteries. I am in the process of finding out if the extra weight will be legal or not. Thunder sky's are 3.2 kg each so thats 115.2 Kg's or Sky energy's are 3.1 kg so 111.6 kg's. The bike was 151 kg's with the ICE and full tank of fuel. So already its over its original weight (bare frame is 50 Kg's) and this dosn't allow for the battery box and all the other stuff to go on. Possibly 20 - 30 Kg's heavier than before.
Regards

Glenn Marks

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