PIP-4048MS inverter

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vulcanescu35
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by vulcanescu35 » Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 05:30

good evening,
I can't use the management interfaces on PIP 4048 MSD simultaneously ( USB+RS232). if I'm connected to the USB port (where I use a raspverry PI) and at the same time trying to connect to RS 232 I can not synchronize Watch Power until I disconnect the USB port. I'm interested in using Raspberry on USB with ICC software and serial connection with a PC for Watch Power.
is there any solution to this?

best regards,

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 06:25

Welcome to the forum.
vulcanescu35 wrote:
Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 05:30
I'm interested in using Raspberry on USB with ICC software and serial connection with a PC for Watch Power.
is there any solution to this?
Both the RS232 and the USB ports use the same serial port on the DSP. So I can't see an easy solution there.

Perhaps you could use a serial port on the Raspberry Pi to talk to Watchpower on the PC, and get the Pi to act as a sort of router, interleaving commands and directing responses to the PC or other Pi software as appropriate. You could assume that any response is to the most recent command, so it might not be very difficult.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by vulcanescu35 » Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 06:33

coulomb wrote:
Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 06:25
Welcome to the forum.
vulcanescu35 wrote:
Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 05:30
I'm interested in using Raspberry on USB with ICC software and serial connection with a PC for Watch Power.
is there any solution to this?
Both the RS232 and the USB ports use the same serial port on the DSP. So I can't see an easy solution there.

Perhaps you could use a serial port on the Raspberry Pi to talk to Watchpower on the PC, and get the Pi to act as a sort of router, interleaving commands and directing responses to the PC or other Pi software as appropriate. You could assume that any response is to the most recent command, so it might not be very difficult.
thank you for information, i will study this option.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 09:59

Hope the New yr goes well for all here and thankyou all for the information shared.
Possibly a dumb question but I won't know unless I ask so here goes:
If 3 inverters are linked to provide 3 phase power, can any individual phase also be used @ 230vac as long as the inverter limits supplying that phase are not exceeded?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 10:46

That's correct, Terry.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 11:49

Thank you Weber, that makes for some interesting and creative circuit wiring for future projects. Now for another question that comes from simply not knowing the math, 3 x 4kW inverters linked in 3 phase would produce how many kW 3 phase? Once 3 phase is introduced the basic understanding of the relationship between volts/amps/watts goes out the window for me at the moment

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 13:50

T1 Terry wrote:
Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 11:49
3 x 4kW inverters linked in 3 phase would produce how many kW 3 phase?
Energy is always conserved. Power is just energy per time, so power is also always conserved. So 3 4 kW inverters produces 12 kW. That can be as 3 single phase loads at 230V and 17.4 A each, or three phase to phase loads of 400 V at 10 A (load current) each (17.4 A line current), or any combination of line to neutral and line to line loads, always adding up to 12 kW max.

[ Edit: another way to look at it: if I have three inverters supplying 4 kW each, that's a source of 12 kW or 12 kJ of energy per second. There has to be a load somewhere that takes sinks that 12 kW, so those 12 kJ generated every second go somewhere (aren't created or destroyed, i.e. are conserved). ]

One way of thinking about 3 phase voltage and current is that you always split the voltage (with a Y or star or line to neutral load) or the current (for line to line or delta loads) by a factor of root 3 to each of the three loads (considering only balanced loads for a moment). So although the voltage times line current is always root 3 times as high as a single phase case, each load will see only one divided by root 3 of that power. But there are three of them, so the loads total 3 times (1/root 3) times root 3 equals 3 times the power of a single phase case.

In the case of 3 230 V inverters at 17.4 A: each inverter can provide 230 x 17.4 = 4000 W. For star connected load, it's just three single phase inverters that happen to have their voltages 120° out of phase with each other. Also the wire from the common point of the loads to the common point of the inverter neutrals will have theoretically zero current, and could theoretically be left out, though I'd not recommend it with switching inverters. With a delta connected load, each load would see root 3 times 230 V (= 400 V), but one over root 3 (0.866) times the current (10.0 A). So each load sees 400 x 10.0 = 4000 W. Note however if the loads are resistors, they'd be 230 / 17.3 = 13.3 ohms each in the star connected case, but they'd have to be 400 / 10 = 40 ohms each (three times higher resistance) in order to draw one over root 3 times the current from root 3 times the voltage.

Edit: so you can't take the same load that was star connected, and rearrange it as delta connected, because they would draw three times the power that way. If the loads were the maximum that each inverter could supply single phase, then when connected in delta, the same resistors would overload each inverter by 200%.

[ Edit: changed the second example from 231 V @ 17.3 A to 230 V at 17.4 A, to agree with the other figures. ]
[ Edit: removed a paragraph that was wrong and confusing, and too hard to fix cleanly. ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by dinu_tiberiu_george » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 03:32

Hy again!
There is any chance to increase the bulk/absorb beyond the 58.4v to an mpp solar 5048ms?
My battery bank is flooded and i need 58.8v to charge them right

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rezydent » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 05:20

Hi all,
first please apologize for my poor english.
I am runing a new solar inverter from MPP SOLAR PIP 4048 MS 5000VA DC input 48VDC AC output 230 VAC
There was an error (09).The inverter has stopped working. What should I start with, check what's wrong with it ? I will be grateful for your help, I will be grateful for your help.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 06:06

Ok, another dumb question and probably not the right forum but you guys seem to have knowledge way beyond anything...
For my next lot of panels I want to use 4mm2 cable - I am running each string of 3 panels back to a breaker board where I will combine strings there - so max current for each string less than 10Amps.
The question is... the MC4 connectors I have will leave a gap between the cable and rubber seal. 'These connectors provide a tight fit for 6mm cable.
I can't seem to find connectors specifically designed for 4mm cable (apprx 4mm sheath diameter). Do they exist? Or will greasing/siliconing the crimp be ok?
cheers
John

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 07:57

dinu_tiberiu_george wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 03:32
Hy again!
There is any chance to increase the bulk/absorb beyond the 58.4v to an mpp solar 5048ms?
My battery bank is flooded and i need 58.8v to charge them right
I'm sorry, Dinu. There is no chance. We do not have access to the firmware for the 5048MS. But even if we did, we would not increase the maximum voltage as the capacitors and MOSFETs on the battery side of the inverter are not rated for it.

58.4 volts should be OK for your battery. Equalisation will still occur. Your problem may not be the voltage. It may be that not enough time is spent at that voltage, due to the charge bug that afflicts all inverters in this family. We have fixed this bug in our patched firmware for the 4048MS, but we can't yet do so for the 5048MS.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 08:02

rezydent wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 05:20
Hi all,
first please apologize for my poor english.
I am runing a new solar inverter from MPP SOLAR PIP 4048 MS 5000VA DC input 48VDC AC output 230 VAC
There was an error (09).The inverter has stopped working. What should I start with, check what's wrong with it ? I will be grateful for your help, I will be grateful for your help.
Hi rezydent. This typically means the MOSFETs and capacitors on the battery side (right-hand side) of the inverter have failed, and when they fail they typically take out some of the MOSFET driver components as well. See the "Hardware" section of the index post at the start of this thread. viewtopic.php?t=4332

Edit: Since this is a new inverter, if you know you have not mistreated it, you should be making a warranty claim with the supplier.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 08:54

jds686868 wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 06:06
Ok, another dumb question and probably not the right forum but you guys seem to have knowledge way beyond anything...
For my next lot of panels I want to use 4mm2 cable - I am running each string of 3 panels back to a breaker board where I will combine strings there - so max current for each string less than 10Amps.
The question is... the MC4 connectors I have will leave a gap between the cable and rubber seal. 'These connectors provide a tight fit for 6mm cable.
I can't seem to find connectors specifically designed for 4mm cable (apprx 4mm sheath diameter). Do they exist? Or will greasing/siliconing the crimp be ok?
cheers
John
Hi John. MC4 connectors are definitely available for use with 4 mm² cable as that is the most common copper cross-sectional-area (CSA) used. However the 4 mm² cable should have approximately a 6 mm sheath diameter, which is the case for the standard double-insulated UV-stabilised solar cable (which is typically black). So the right solution is to use the intended cable.

But if there is a strong reason to use cable you already have, and it is UV-stable, and the open circuit voltage will always be less than 120 V, and it is only for your personal use, then I would favour neutral-cure silicone over grease. But you should also consider whether there will be any strain relief (gripping of the sheath by the connector).

Some other considerations are:

There are many fake MC4 connectors on the market, particularly on eBay. You should be certain that your panel and cable connectors are the same brand. Mismatched pairs have started fires, some time after installation, because they don't make proper contact. In extreme cases it may be necessary to cut the connectors off the panels and replace them with the same brand used on your cables.

If the longest cable run from your panels to your inverter is less than 10 metres (in this specific case of voltage, current and CSA), you could parallel strings on the roof, in pairs, using MC4 Y-cables or Y-adapters (MMF and FFM). That way you only need to bring half as many cables down from the roof, and only need half as many circuit breakers (at twice the current rating).
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 12:20

Thanks Master Weber, no doubt I have the fake connectors and fake cable (the 6mm and 4mm is supposedly UV/Solar cable, both are double insulated). The 6mm cable I have is about 7mm dia sheath and that is a very snug fit. Haven't had an issue with the connectors so far on the existing panels, but will definitely check when connecting the next batch of panels. Any suggestion on where to get real connectors? Sounds like my cable my be under specked when it comes to insulation thickness so real ones may not help.
Cable run is about 15m-20m, all under 120v, personal use only.

On a different topic, any issue running a couple of extra 120mm 12v fans off the internal fan connector? I have turned the internal fans upside down (was getting seriously warm at the bottom of the unit) and added 2 extra on the outside/top of the unit in push/pull config. Current draw of the additional fans is .16A each.
Last edited by jds686868 on Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 15:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rezydent » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 13:18

weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 08:02
rezydent wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 05:20
Hi all,
first please apologize for my poor english.
I am runing a new solar inverter from MPP SOLAR PIP 4048 MS 5000VA DC input 48VDC AC output 230 VAC
There was an error (09).The inverter has stopped working. What should I start with, check what's wrong with it ? I will be grateful for your help, I will be grateful for your help.
Hi rezydent. This typically means the MOSFETs and capacitors on the battery side (right-hand side) of the inverter have failed, and when they fail they typically take out some of the MOSFET driver components as well. See the "Hardware" section of the index post at the start of this thread. viewtopic.php?t=4332

Edit: Since this is a new inverter, if you know you have not mistreated it, you should be making a warranty claim with the supplier.
Unfortunately, the warranty has expired unscrew the casing and see what has been blown. If I have a problem with this inverter, I will ask more questions.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 20:44

jds686868 wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 12:20
Any suggestion on where to get real connectors? Sounds like my cable my be under specked when it comes to insulation thickness so real ones may not help.
I suggest including the terms "genuine Multi-Contact MC4" in your search. You can see here that they are the same connector for 4 mm² and 6 mm², however there are three different gland ranges. The smallest of these only goes down to 5 mm diameter. So you need to find 4 mm² solar cable that is at least that diameter.
On a different topic, any issue running a couple of extra 120mm 12v fans off the internal fan connector? I have turned the internal fans upside down (was getting seriously warm at the bottom of the unit) and added 2 extra on the outside/top of the unit in push/pull config. Current draw of the additional fans is .16A each.
There's some info about the fan circuitry, from coulomb, here. It doesn't really answer your question, but my guess is, if it's been working for more than a day, it will probably keep working indefinitely.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 07:32

Thanks, not sure how that fan circuit plays out - the 12v and gnd lines look constant. At least my external fans (connected to 12v/gnd) have been running at a seemingly fixed speed - happy to sacrifice the additional 4 watts of consumption without putting in temp control.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 11:49

coulomb wrote:
Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 13:50
T1 Terry wrote:
Sun, 31 Dec 2017, 11:49
3 x 4kW inverters linked in 3 phase would produce how many kW 3 phase?
Energy is always conserved. Power is just energy per time, so power is also always conserved. So 3 4 kW inverters produces 12 kW. That can be as 3 single phase loads at 230V and 17.4 A each, or three phase to phase loads of 400 V at 10 A (load current) each (17.4 A line current), or any combination of line to neutral and line to line loads, always adding up to 12 kW max.

[ Edit: another way to look at it: if I have three inverters supplying 4 kW each, that's a source of 12 kW or 12 kJ of energy per second. There has to be a load somewhere that takes sinks that 12 kW, so those 12 kJ generated every second go somewhere (aren't created or destroyed, i.e. are conserved). ]

One way of thinking about 3 phase voltage and current is that you always split the voltage (with a Y or star or line to neutral load) or the current (for line to line or delta loads) by a factor of root 3 to each of the three loads (considering only balanced loads for a moment). So although the voltage times line current is always root 3 times as high as a single phase case, each load will see only one divided by root 3 of that power. But there are three of them, so the loads total 3 times (1/root 3) times root 3 equals 3 times the power of a single phase case.

In the case of 3 230 V inverters at 17.4 A: each inverter can provide 230 x 17.4 = 4000 W. For star connected load, it's just three single phase inverters that happen to have their voltages 120° out of phase with each other. Also the wire from the common point of the loads to the common point of the inverter neutrals will have theoretically zero current, and could theoretically be left out, though I'd not recommend it with switching inverters. With a delta connected load, each load would see root 3 times 230 V (= 400 V), but one over root 3 (0.866) times the current (10.0 A). So each load sees 400 x 10.0 = 4000 W. Note however if the loads are resistors, they'd be 230 / 17.3 = 13.3 ohms each in the star connected case, but they'd have to be 400 / 10 = 40 ohms each (three times higher resistance) in order to draw one over root 3 times the current from root 3 times the voltage.

Edit: so you can't take the same load that was star connected, and rearrange it as delta connected, because they would draw three times the power that way. If the loads were the maximum that each inverter could supply single phase, then when connected in delta, the same resistors would overload each inverter by 200%.

[ Edit: changed the second example from 231 V @ 17.3 A to 230 V at 17.4 A, to agree with the other figures. ]
[ Edit: removed a paragraph that was wrong and confusing, and too hard to fix cleanly. ]
Thankyou very much for that detailed explanation and I have copied and saved it to my reference material folder to ponder over until it sinks in, each time I read it I think I understand it a bit more. The part about a delta connection resulting in a higher voltage at a lower current compared to a star connection triggered one of those things I learnt so long ago and had completely forgotten since because I've never needed to use it. Getting old combined with a brain trauma injury is a real bugga, take 3 times as long to relearn stuff I grasped easily before the accident.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 11:56

weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 08:54
jds686868 wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 06:06
Ok, another dumb question and probably not the right forum but you guys seem to have knowledge way beyond anything...
For my next lot of panels I want to use 4mm2 cable - I am running each string of 3 panels back to a breaker board where I will combine strings there - so max current for each string less than 10Amps.
The question is... the MC4 connectors I have will leave a gap between the cable and rubber seal. 'These connectors provide a tight fit for 6mm cable.
I can't seem to find connectors specifically designed for 4mm cable (apprx 4mm sheath diameter). Do they exist? Or will greasing/siliconing the crimp be ok?
cheers
John
Hi John. MC4 connectors are definitely available for use with 4 mm² cable as that is the most common copper cross-sectional-area (CSA) used. However the 4 mm² cable should have approximately a 6 mm sheath diameter, which is the case for the standard double-insulated UV-stabilised solar cable (which is typically black). So the right solution is to use the intended cable.

But if there is a strong reason to use cable you already have, and it is UV-stable, and the open circuit voltage will always be less than 120 V, and it is only for your personal use, then I would favour neutral-cure silicone over grease. But you should also consider whether there will be any strain relief (gripping of the sheath by the connector).

Some other considerations are:

There are many fake MC4 connectors on the market, particularly on eBay. You should be certain that your panel and cable connectors are the same brand. Mismatched pairs have started fires, some time after installation, because they don't make proper contact. In extreme cases it may be necessary to cut the connectors off the panels and replace them with the same brand used on your cables.

If the longest cable run from your panels to your inverter is less than 10 metres (in this specific case of voltage, current and CSA), you could parallel strings on the roof, in pairs, using MC4 Y-cables or Y-adapters (MMF and FFM). That way you only need to bring half as many cables down from the roof, and only need half as many circuit breakers (at twice the current rating).
For this very reason we have been forced to change our connection method by punching out the connector from the black plastic piece so the male and female section of the actual pins/sockets can be pushed all the way home, soldered and protected with heat shrink. Most our systems are nom. 12v in parallel so the loss through poor connections had serious effects on total harvest. The other catch is some manufacturers are using 2.5mm sq conductor with extra thick insulation layers to make it look like 4mmsq solar cable.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 12:16

Yeh, buyer beware. I noticed on fleabay quite a bit of cable was advertised as 4mm2 but then when you read the description it actually said 2.x mm2 or others provided no detail at all. The "cheapish" cable I bought is roughly 4mm2 - aluminium though. Hence my plan to run individual cables to each string, and to help with isolation if a panel/string dies. I will probably use a poly urethane to help seal the crimp/connectors - sticky as all hell and more flexible than silicon. Will also make sure the batch of connectors I have form a good tight fit.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 12:36

Hi Terry. Thanks for your confirmation regarding the problems of fake MC4s.

But regarding the 2.5 mm² solar cable that is almost the same diameter as the 4 mm²: This is normal, even for quite reputable brands such as Radox, as you can see on page 2 of http://elteccable.be/uploads/RADOX-Solar-Cable.pdf. They probably do it for resistance to mechanical damage, e.g. from hailstones, work boots or possum teeth. It also allows the same glands (including those in the back of MC4 connectors) to work for all sizes from 2.5 mm² to 6 mm².
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 14:08

jds686868 wrote:
Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 12:16
Yeh, buyer beware. I noticed on fleabay quite a bit of cable was advertised as 4mm2 but then when you read the description it actually said 2.x mm2 or others provided no detail at all. The "cheapish" cable I bought is roughly 4mm2 - aluminium though. Hence my plan to run individual cables to each string, and to help with isolation if a panel/string dies. I will probably use a poly urethane to help seal the crimp/connectors - sticky as all hell and more flexible than silicon. Will also make sure the batch of connectors I have form a good tight fit.
The main issue is to check how deep the metal male pin will go into the female socket when the plastic plugs are pushed together, often there is only 3mm contact instead of the full 13mm pin length so the spring clip inside the socket never engages with the pin so it is never actually secured to form a full contact. Often when chasing a problem that has occurred some time after the system has been assembled the pins in a number of plugs will be severely pitted or even burnt off as a result of arcing

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by dinu_tiberiu_george » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 17:24

weber wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 07:57
dinu_tiberiu_george wrote:
Tue, 02 Jan 2018, 03:32
Hy again!
There is any chance to increase the bulk/absorb beyond the 58.4v to an mpp solar 5048ms?
My battery bank is flooded and i need 58.8v to charge them right
I'm sorry, Dinu. There is no chance. We do not have access to the firmware for the 5048MS. But even if we did, we would not increase the maximum voltage as the capacitors and MOSFETs on the battery side of the inverter are not rated for it.

58.4 volts should be OK for your battery. Equalisation will still occur. Your problem may not be the voltage. It may be that not enough time is spent at that voltage, due to the charge bug that afflicts all inverters in this family. We have fixed this bug in our patched firmware for the 4048MS, but we can't yet do so for the 5048MS.

Hy,
I charge my Rolls battery bank S-500EX (357ah/48v flooded) with 60amp.may seem a lot of current but in battery manual it says you can charge with 10-20% curent of c20 rated. in 5048ms i can set the cv stage time manualy. What time shoud i choose to stay enough to 58.4v?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 17:56

dinu_tiberiu_george wrote:
Wed, 03 Jan 2018, 17:24
Hy,
I charge my Rolls battery bank S-500EX (357ah/48v flooded) with 60amp.may seem a lot of current but in battery manual it says you can charge with 10-20% curent of c20 rated. in 5048ms i can set the cv stage time manualy. What time shoud i choose to stay enough to 58.4v?
On page 10 of the Rolls manual we see a formula for the absorb time for their flooded cells. Based on the information you give above, I get 0.42*357/60 = 2.5 hours = 150 minutes.

The trouble is, there is a bug in the firmware for the inverter which lets it count time spent well below 58.4 V as absorb time, after it has once been above 57.9 V. So on a day with patches of cloud, it will not get the full 150 minutes at 58.4 V. We have patched the firmware to fix that for the 4048MS, but not the 5048MS.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Thu, 04 Jan 2018, 04:42

Thanks Terry, will check that out length of contact of the pins too.

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