What have I done????

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T1 Terry
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Post by T1 Terry » Sat, 26 Jul 2014, 21:42

Well, I am now the owner of Bigmouse's 48v rewound motor, Weber's "The Beast" controller (well when it gets here anyway) and Geerant's Evo Electric 3φ AC Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor - Axial Flux
Motor Controller - 1x Tritium 3φ AC Pure Sinewave Inverter
Batteries - 125x Sinopoly 100Ah "Black" Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries
BMS - 1x Tritium IQcell Battery Management System (100Ah Version)
Power Steering - 1x Mocen Electric Power Steering Hydraulic Pump - unfortunately the other bits were already gone Image would have loved that air con compressor, but such is life some one once said.
The Sinolpoly cells are all but sold now, no point in holding on to them and letting them age further in their boxes, I can't see myself getting a project up and running in under a few yrs, I am a realist about these things Image

So, I'm thinking the Kombi will be the learning project, Big Mouse's motor and Weber's controller I think will be the better pick for this application, the EVO Axial Flux motor would screw the thing in half I think, so it will go into the big bus hybrid drive set up.
So, the vertical learning curve begins Image

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Post by jonescg » Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 03:01

I know of a certain kind of electric superbike which could take an Evo under it's wing Image

All the best with the projects - I look forward to watching them evolve Image
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Post by gholm » Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 03:28

Someone say Kombi? :)

Dunno if a 48v motor will do much, but holy hell, Geerant's AC motor coupled with the Tritium...now we're talking.....

Don't forget... these batteries weigh a good bit more than lugging a few fat passengers, so having that extra grunt onboard will be needed to keep up with daily traffic.
I'd say work with those and sell the DC stuff.

The rear engine/rear drive layout might be interesting to route, (gearbox/diff/motor all in the rear) but there is no doubt it can be solved, as the chassis is one of the more spacious and flexible on the road. Plus it can definitely take the weight.

What Kombi model is it? Late? early? (please be a 50's splitty lol)
V.exciting times.


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Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 02:21

I couldn't do that to splittie, that would be sacrilege, it's a '74 bay, so still the classic kombi so the gut wrenching decision to modify a classic is still there, but the combination of a true classic hippie machine and the green appeal of an EV won out.
The 48v rewind is an AC motor, combined with "The Beast" as a controller I think it will get up and boggie with around 450v to get it spinning.
Kombi has had 50 6v 125Ah Yuasa AGM batteries in it and carted them ok so the weight and room won't be an issue, getting my head around high voltage electrics and VFD's may be a different story.
I have managed to stir the interests of a very experience industrial electrician who has gravitated to the offices at State rail so I'm hoping he will save me from making an ash of myself.
When I get "The Beast" down here from Weber's place I'll start a new thread with photos of the old meeting the new. I guess I'd better follow up on how I join the AEVA NSW group and start paying my way :lol:

T1 Terry

Just help with identifying what the bits are, this is the link to the motor I bought from Big Mouse viewtopic.php?title=eoi-catavolt-custom ... ore&t=4135 and the controller viewtopic.php?title=for-sale-the-beast- ... 000&t=4090
Last edited by T1 Terry on Sun, 27 Jul 2014, 16:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 7circle » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 10:53

T1 Terry wrote:....
Just help with identifying what the bits are, this is the link to the motor I bought from Big Mouseviewtopic.php?title=eoi-catavolt-custom ... ore&t=4135 and the controller viewtopic.php?title=for-sale-the-beast- ... 000&t=4090


BigMouse wrote: Here's the data on the motor before the re-wind: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/301 ... EG11kw.pdf - PDF File WEG11kW-2pole(edit name of link to dropbox URL But it may be past Drop box useby date L)

EDIT: Weber pointed out that the document linked above is for a 2-pole motor. I just checked and the original invoice for the motor says it was based on a 9.2kW 4-pole doner. Something to note when looking through that file.


I had quick look at the WEG 132 4pole premium-eff aluminium frame motors that are 90% eff at Full Load.
But only found 5.5kw and 7.5kW capacity. then jumped to 11kW at bigger frame size.
they had 340% Break-down Torque.

Be interesting to see what you ... and Bigmouse can push out these motors.

Just make sure the old kombi gearbox and wheel cv/shafts can cope with allowed peak motor torque set by controller.
shame shame EVO motor and Tritrium getting dusty too.
Image

I wonder what kind of wheels you get around on now Mr T.
Do you have the big bus waiting for conversion too?

Well I hope its lots of "fun" trouble for ya.
Look forward to reading the the results of your Kombi-nation
Image

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Post by 7circle » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 11:24

Just did a google on 9.2kW 4 pole WEG and got hit at RMS Industrial in Aus.
132M/L 9.2kW 4p http://www.rmsindustrial.com.au/image/d ... 4pfoot.pdf

Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 17.2A with 415 @50Hz
82kg

1470 RPM 2%slip
Looks sweet 390% Break-down Torque (.... 233Nm)

and 310% locked rotor torque (... so from standing start with 415/50Hz .. 185Nm)

But Vector control would be more effective.

Image interesting... Image

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Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 17:42

7circle wrote: Just did a google on 9.2kW 4 pole WEG and got hit at RMS Industrial in Aus.
<a href="http://www.rmsindustrial.com.au/image/d ... 4pfoot.pdf" rel="nofollow">132M/L 9.2kW 4p http://www.rmsindustrial.com.au/image/d ... oot.pdf</a>

Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 17.2A with 415 @50Hz
82kg

1470 RPM 2%slip
Looks sweet 390% Break-down Torque (.... 233Nm)

and 310% locked rotor torque (... so from standing start with 415/50Hz .. 185Nm)

But Vector control would be more effective.

Image interesting... Image


ummm.... Image What relationship does the 415v @ 50HZ have with the 48v rewind driven by the "Beast" VFD and a 450VDC nom. battery pack? Do the figures remain the same, just the rpm changes or is there a whole digital alphabet equation required to come up with standing start torque and max rpm?
As you can see, I am clueless when it comes to this side of things Image

The reason for picking this combination for the Kombi repower rather than the EVO motor and Wavesculptor VFD was the likely max load time, the WEG and Beast are air cooled, the EVO and Wavesculptor are liquid cooled so they should be able to handle the longer full load period better. It is unlikely even as a hybrid the 12 tonne lump with the air dynamics of a block of flats will be under anything less than full load on a major hill climb, especially towing Kombi behind it with it's increased payload.

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Post by Richo » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 20:34

7circle wrote:I had quick look at the WEG 132 4pole premium-eff aluminium frame motors that are 90% eff at Full Load.
But only found 5.5kw and 7.5kW capacity.
Then jumped to 11kW at bigger frame size.
they had 340% Break-down Torque.

Be interesting to see what you ... and Bigmouse can push out these motors.


Well I would think it would be ~65kW, 90kW and 130kW respectively.
Bigger than 132 would only be useful for direct drive systems.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Richo » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 20:45

T1 Terry wrote: What relationship does the 415v @ 50HZ have with the 48v rewind driven by the "Beast" VFD and a 450VDC nom. battery pack?

Generally speaking...
48Vac@50Hz@1500RPM
96Vac@100Hz@3000RPM
192Vac@200Hz@6000RPM
240Vac@250Hz@7500RPM

450Vdc under load would be a bit over 240Vac at the motor.

Too me it sounds like the battery voltage is a bit higher than needed or the motor is wound a bit lower than needed.

You said you had 125 cells this would be ~400Vdc anyway.
Last edited by Richo on Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 10:46, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 23:08

The "Beast" requires a min of 425vdc to play the game. Apparently there are parameters that can be set to allow a voltage drop as far as 330vdc, but it needs that 425vdc to reset once the system has been shut down either manually or because the voltage sag dropped lower than 330vdc. With only 125 cells the cell voltage would need to be 3.4v per cell or higher to reset the VFD, basically fully charged every start up and that would not be suitable for the likes of a shopping trip etc.
140 cells would give me 420vdc @ 3.0vdc per cell, so anything better than 3.03vdc per cell will get the thing going again, as that is virtually fully discharged it seems like a good min cell count.

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Post by 7circle » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 23:40

T1 Terry wrote:
7circle wrote: ...
Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 17.2A with 415 @50Hz
...

...
ummm.... Image What relationship does the 415v @ 50HZ have with the 48v rewind driven by the "Beast" VFD and a 450VDC nom. battery pack? Do the figures remain the same, just the rpm changes or is there a whole digital alphabet equation required to come up with standing start torque and max rpm?


If... IF.. the motor was before rewind a :
Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 17.2A with 415 @50Hz

after rewind
Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 154A with 48Vac @50Hz (delta)

The rewinder has changed the number of wire turns by a factor of 48/415.

What I thought was important was the Nominal torque of 59.8Nm
and that the breakdown torque humps/peaks at 390% when phase current is 6.5 x Inom
So to get 390% of 59.8Nm ..that's 233Nm you need 6.5 x 154A is 1001Aac in phase wires.
... That's huge!

But realistically the beast can push out " 273 A for 40 seconds"
so 273A/154A is 1.77 so from data sheet graphs the 1.77 I/In translates to 1.5 T/Tn.
Looks like 1.5 x Tn is 89.7Nm
The motor looks like it has huge capabilty but the Nominal Torque is tiny compared to what it can push.

I'm thinking of a sprinter who can do the 100m in 10sec but is puffed out.
where as a middle distance runner could do thee 100m in 12sec but then keep going for 400m in 50sec

But still not sure what motor you stqrted with. Or what it is exactly now.

Bigmouse is building his own controller so not sure if he has usable Motor Parameters.
And the Motor Specs are NOT for smart controller but just a BIG 3phase switch DOL (direct on line)

Most of this Motor rating issue looks like Thermal capacity.

If the controllers a"Beast" whats the Motor a "Beast on steroids"
Which why Bigmouse is grinning it's also has its twin in his 300Zex

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Post by 7circle » Mon, 28 Jul 2014, 23:51

T1 Terry wrote: The "Beast" requires a min of 425vdc to play the game. ...


But in the Beast 4sale thread ...
Johny wrote: Wow - here's another gem in "the Beast".
Essentially, if you provide 24 VDC for control and 36 to 96VDC for power, you can run it in emergency low-voltage mode. Great for testing.

4.6 Low voltage DC power supply
The Unidrive SP can be operated from low voltage DC supplies,
nominally 24Vdc (control) and 48Vdc (power). The low voltage DC
power operating mode is designed either, to allow for motor operation in
an emergency back-up situation following failure of the AC supply, for
example in elevators; or to limit the speed of a servo motor during
commissioning of equipment, for example a robot cell.
The working voltage range of the low voltage DC power supply is as
follows:
...
...
Size 4, 5 and 6 (400V and 690V drives)
Minimum continuous operating voltage: 36V
Nominal continuous operating voltage: 48 to 96V
Maximum braking IGBT turn on voltage: 127.2V
Maximum over voltage trip threshold: 139.2V

I have downloaded the Low Voltage appendix and added it to my VFDs\Unidrive directory. Hope I'm not getting to carried away here.....
I love industrial VFDs.

Image

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Post by T1 Terry » Tue, 29 Jul 2014, 00:14

But is it driveable in the emergency low voltage mode or is this for getting it turning over to check everything is wired correctly?
Maximum braking IGBT turn on voltage: 127.2V
Maximum over voltage trip threshold: 139.2V

This bit has no confused, if the nom. continuous operating voltage in emergency mode is 48v to 96v, then it's not going to reach the 127.2v for the max IGBT turn on and @ 425v it's way over the 139.2v, so I obviously don't understand what is being said...... come to think about, that goes for a lot of it Image

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Post by T1 Terry » Tue, 29 Jul 2014, 00:23

7circle wrote:
T1 Terry wrote:
7circle wrote: ...
Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 17.2A with 415 @50Hz
...

...
ummm.... Image What relationship does the 415v @ 50HZ have with the 48v rewind driven by the "Beast" VFD and a 450VDC nom. battery pack? Do the figures remain the same, just the rpm changes or is there a whole digital alphabet equation required to come up with standing start torque and max rpm?


If... IF.. the motor was before rewind a :
Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 17.2A with 415 @50Hz

after rewind
Nom torque 59.8Nm
at 154A with 48Vac @50Hz (delta)

The rewinder has changed the number of wire turns by a factor of 48/415.

What I thought was important was the Nominal torque of 59.8Nm
and that the breakdown torque humps/peaks at 390% when phase current is 6.5 x Inom
So to get 390% of 59.8Nm ..that's 233Nm you need 6.5 x 154A is 1001Aac in phase wires.
... That's huge!

But realistically the beast can push out " 273 A for 40 seconds"
so 273A/154A is 1.77 so from data sheet graphs the 1.77 I/In translates to 1.5 T/Tn.
Looks like 1.5 x Tn is 89.7Nm
The motor looks like it has huge capabilty but the Nominal Torque is tiny compared to what it can push.

I'm thinking of a sprinter who can do the 100m in 10sec but is puffed out.
where as a middle distance runner could do thee 100m in 12sec but then keep going for 400m in 50sec

But still not sure what motor you stqrted with. Or what it is exactly now.

Bigmouse is building his own controller so not sure if he has usable Motor Parameters.
And the Motor Specs are NOT for smart controller but just a BIG 3phase switch DOL (direct on line)

Most of this Motor rating issue looks like Thermal capacity.

If the controllers a"Beast" whats the Motor a "Beast on steroids"
Which why Bigmouse is grinning it's also has its twin in his 300Zex

Is this why I have to wire the motor in star rather than delta, to get the bottom end torque?
I was hoping the torque would be great enough for 4th gear starts from the lights on flat ground, or if the RPM is high enough then 3rd gear off the line. A Kombi handles like a dog on lino at the best of times so neck snapping launches are not the aim here, easy drivability is the real aim, you know, lay back Kombi style Image

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Post by 7circle » Tue, 29 Jul 2014, 03:15

Don't mean to side track you with Lower Volts and such.

I had written a post but the "Post Ghost" vapourized from my screen.

So .. Emergency allows a crawl mode for a big 90kW robot with 220kVA peak
to be taught/trained/educated by its programmers at say 5 to 40kW.
It is lower power that can be constrained better than 400 - 800V dc bus.
The full current would still be available even at low dc bus voltage.

The "brake IGBT" is a comman extra feature on controllers to slow the motor and the enertia itls moving.
The controller usually runs on 3phase and you can't regen it back to the grid.
So the controller has other options. A bit ... a tiny bit goes to the DC bus caps by upping their voltage.
But as the Caps charge up an extra IGBT can dump power into a Load Bank or resistor.

I don't know if the 5402 you have has it fitted.

The Beast is a multipurpose industrial "genie" they make 'em like "every wish is you command" when your build a industrail machine.

I think you've got a awsome drive system. I'm just blown away by the motor. I think the 100m Sprint may be wrong analagy.
At it's usual work load if any lumps come along it would just smash it flat.

Ah "The Beast and the Anvil"

Thinking about Delta or StAr.
Until you test the delta setup going to star is an optimization that will be a big effort.
Is it worth it???

All in the learning...


The eVo motor Could be a better Anvil for th Beast...
Looking at Geerants thread...
Evo Electric AFM-140/4
PM Ac motor 750Vdc would go well with the 850Vmax of the beast. The tritrium is limited to 450V.

the pdf has eff map on page 2
Geerant wrote: That seems to match this data as tested at Tritium with my motor.

Image

This was done at 320v.


What delimahs you have...


EVO Motor http://www.evo-electric.com/inc/files/A ... t-V1.1.pdf

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Post by T1 Terry » Tue, 29 Jul 2014, 20:30

The hesitation I have with swapping over the controllers is that Tritium has set up the controller to suit the EVO motor complete with a tricky little board to correct the position sensor (?), if I mess with that and connect it up to the WEG, will I be able to get the beast to drive the EVO motor properly?
It would make more sense to run the lower voltage controller in the Kombi conversion or more so the higher voltage controller with the higher voltage motor to extract the max out of it, but would the Beast drive the EVO motor?

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Post by 7circle » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 03:35

The Beast's website says
... "Servo for synchronous permanent magnet motors / brushless servo motors"
So the emerson / control-techniques site says so and in the pdf broxhure.

Just depends on how you think the Kombi and the bus would best be suited say mechanically.

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Post by EV2Go » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 19:06

T1 Terry wrote: ...but such is life some one once said.
Ahh that would be Ned Kelly :D

Apparently they were his last words before they hung him...

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Post by Richo » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 20:35

T1 Terry wrote:
Is this why I have to wire the motor in star rather than delta, to get the bottom end torque?
I was hoping the torque would be great enough for 4th gear starts from the lights on flat ground


Ah my post didn't make it through yesterday Image
Wiring the motor in Star for the beast would be a good option.

83Vac@50Hz@1500RPM
166Vac@100Hz@3000RPM
332Vac@200Hz@6000RPM
4150Vac@250Hz@7500RPM (580VDC!)

The bottom end torque wont be affected.
It will be the top end.
So the point about 450V minimum voltage won't become an issue.

Starting the car in 4th is determined by Peak Torque, Gearbox/diff ratio , losses and tyre diameter.
It probably would but is too hard to say at this stage if it would be good enough.

Last edited by Richo on Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 10:37, edited 1 time in total.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 21:09

Now you have thrown me completely. I thought the whole reason for wiring in star rather than delta was to improve the bottom end and start up torque at a give voltage but the trade off was top end rpm. If the torque is not improved, what advantage would there be to wiring the WEG in star rather than delta?

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Post by Johny » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 21:54

T1 Terry wrote: Now you have thrown me completely. I thought the whole reason for wiring in star rather than delta was to improve the bottom end and start up torque at a give voltage but the trade off was top end rpm. If the torque is not improved, what advantage would there be to wiring the WEG in star rather than delta?
If the controller is capable of the maximum current required by the motor in Delta, then there is no advantage.
By having the motor rewound to 48VAC, what you have gained is constant torque to a much higher RPM than would have been available from the standard motor.
When Ricko is quoting Voltage and RPM figures he is giving you the RPM point at which further increasing speed results in losing torque.

An example.
The WEG is said to draw 17.5A at 1470 RPM, 415 VAC when delivering nominal torque - 59NM.

Since it is now rewound to 48V and will deliver the same nominal torque, it will require 17.5*(415/48) => 151.3A to get 59NM.
If it can be pushed to 4 times nominal torque it will need a controller that can supply roughly 600 Amps - BUT rather than lose torque above 1470 RPM, it will deliver good torque to just under 10,000 RPM (assuming about 460 VDC battery voltage).

By changing it to Star, you divide the current by 1.73 - so now you only need around 350 Amps to get 4 x nominal torque. The trade off is that the speed at which you start losing torque is also divided by 1.73. Now around 5800 RPM. That happens because it is now an 83 Volt motor so draws less current for any given voltage applied to it.

Edit: Amended torque to 59NM.
Last edited by Johny on Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 11:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 30 Jul 2014, 22:08

BTW. My daily driver eVogue currently only develops 160NM. Direct drive into a 4.22:1 diff and 185/65R13 wheels. It needs more starting torque (< 20km.h) but is quite drivable.

With Star connection and the Beast you'll get around 183NM from the motor. Around 100kW. With a gearbox you'll still be able to blow it up - It should walk it in. My 2 cents - I'd tend to leave the Wavesculptor and EVO combination as they are - use the Beast on the WEG.

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Post by T1 Terry » Thu, 31 Jul 2014, 00:11

I had another look at the specs 7 circles posted http://www.rmsindustrial.com.au/image/d ... 4pfoot.pdf and according to page 4 the torque curve seems to peak at around 75% of max speed and by 80% it's going into free fall. If 5,800rpm is around 75% max speed that would mean the motor should spin to 7,700rpm, around 90% of max speed or 7,000rpm it should have 1.5 times 59.8nm, or 89.7nm. the original ICE motor developed 129nm @ 3,400rpm and a whole 56kW @ 5,000 rpm.... on a good day. If the WEG can produce 240nm all the way through to 5,800rpm that will be quite fast enough for me, I don't think I'd fancy piloting it at 7,000rpm in top gear :lol:

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Post by T1 Terry » Thu, 31 Jul 2014, 00:24

Johny wrote: BTW. My daily driver eVogue currently only develops 160NM. Direct drive into a 4.22:1 diff and 185/65R13 wheels. It needs more starting torque (< 20km.h) but is quite drivable.

With Star connection and the Beast you'll get around 183NM from the motor. Around 100kW. With a gearbox you'll still be able to blow it up - It should walk it in. My 2 cents - I'd tend to leave the Wavesculptor and EVO combination as they are - use the Beast on the WEG.

Seems I got a few of my figures wrong, but that's ok, still plenty of power for what I'll need. My gearbox is a 6 rib with 4.59 ratio diff, these boxes are said to be able to handle 300hp so I should be able to couple it up without blowing it up, I hope

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Post by Johny » Thu, 31 Jul 2014, 00:38

Wow - OK I take back the blow it up bit. It looks like it will emulate the ICE nicely in Star.

Sent from phone.

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