Goverment EV Rebates

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Post by Nick » Tue, 29 Jul 2008, 21:34

As part of establishing SA Electric Vehicle Conversions I have had increasing discussions with various levels of government.
The question of EV Rebates ( as per converting your car to LPG)is an ongoing discussion point and I would like to know what lobbying has been done in the past and by who to who. So that I can reinforce the work already done and try to inch the issue forward a little.
Please Post a comment, or PM me or Email me nick@adelaidezcars.com.au
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Post by CometBoy » Tue, 05 Aug 2008, 01:58

Nick,

Have you read this paper?

http://www.innovation.gov.au/automotive ... 170408.pdf

It was a submission to the Garnaut Report that got a lot of press.

I would be interested in helping in anyway on this topic....

Cheers

Bruce


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Post by snakattak » Tue, 05 Aug 2008, 06:45

Nice one CometBoy!
like all good info it's not on the front page. It is heartening to see that such reports exist and are circulating in the realm of government decision making, regrettably circulation is a long way removed from articulation, when it comes to politics and government!

The one section I found disturbing, though, was the "What can the government do to help?" list. Item 1 is the very thing that sank the CARB legislation which was successfully challenged by the US automotive giants. The moment you get something positive (either restriction or subsidy $$) from the gov, someone's going to (perceive) they've been disadvantaged, and then the fun begins....

Last year in the lead up to the election I drafted an email (that I didn't end up sending) which offered a challenge to political candidates, and at least one way of getting people, and in particular businesses to actually change their transport choices.

I'd be interested in feedback about that idea.

Cheers, Mike

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Post by mjcrow » Wed, 06 Aug 2008, 00:05

Interesting email Mike,Image I notice every day the ridiculous number of large vehicles during peak hours with only one person in them.

Why didn't you send the email?

mjcrow

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Post by CometBoy » Wed, 06 Aug 2008, 01:28

Good email snakattak but yes why didn’t it get sent?

I think that any correspondence and lobbying, whether via the national AEVA, a local chapter of that group or just individuals is vitally important to get the ball rolling, especially as it is such a topical issue. We have two strong politicians on side - Senator Nick Xenophon and Mark Parnell (SA MLC). I would suggest them as a good starting point for individuals. I’m sure your new SA AEVA branch meeting this month will have this high on the agenda as well.

To short circuit the process here are the relevant links to get email details for our various SA members:

SA Senators are listed on the following site:

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/senators/h ... p?state=sa

SA Contacts for house of reps are listed on the following site:

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/mem ... _state.asp

and Mark Parnell can be contacted on this site:

http://www.markparnell.org.au/

My suggestion is write them an email expressing your concern about the lack of a rebate, invite then to look at your backyard EV project, if it’s finished – let them drive it. By writing as an individual, they are obliged to response, just signing a petition they are not. Remember a $6,000 rebate would buy those good batteries!

Cheers

Bruce

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Post by CometBoy » Thu, 18 Sep 2008, 05:03

EV rebate systems – maybe a dim light at the end of the tunnel?

After writing to many of our politicians about the possibility of a rebate system for EV’s, I have had a favourable conversation with Craig Wilkins from Mark Parnell’s , MLC Australian Greens Party office.

I mentioned the reformed EV association in South Australia which could probably be a focal point to raise the EV profile in South Australia.

Mark’s office is also interested in getting together a document that could form the basis of how a rebate system in SA could work.

As an individual, I will keep discussion open with Mark’s office and hopefully get him driving my project car which is on target to be completed in 2009.

I think rebates would need to take two forms:

- one for new EV sales

- one for EV conversions

I favour a rebate scheme for EV conversions that would cover 50% of the cost of the battery pack (to a ceiling) and payable on successful registration of the completed EV vehicle conversion.

I also support an ongoing discounted rego scheme for EV’s.

I would be interest to know others views and the current directions as outlined by the new association?

For reference, Craig has approved posting a copy of his email. He would be pleased to hear your EV views....
___________________________

Hi Bruce,

Great talking to you yesterday.

As discussed, Mark is very keen to hear about any ideas (policy/technological/other) for encouraging more electric vehicles onto SA roads.

Cheers

Craig

Craig Wilkins
Media/Researcher to Mark Parnell MLC
Australian Greens

Ph:     (08) 8237 9471 / 0434 007 893    
Fax:    (08) 8237 9566
Email: [url=mailto:craig.wilkins@parliament.sa.gov.au]craig.wilkins@parliament.sa.gov.au[/url]
Post:   Parliament House, North Terrace, Adelaide, SA 5000
Web:    http://www.markparnell.org.au
This email and any files transmitted with it may be confidential and legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must not disclose or use the information contained in it. If you have received this email in error, please notify us by return email and permanently delete the document.

___________________________

Cheers

Bruce

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Post by CometBoy » Fri, 19 Sep 2008, 23:58

Update on possible EV rebate scheme in SA

Today Nita Freer-Cooling from the office of Andrew Southcott MP contacted me and Andrew Southcott has asked for a meeting to discuss EV rebate ideas. This meeting will take place sometime after the 29 September.

I have strong ideas on how such a scheme could operate (see my last post) and am very happy to proceed as a single voice. BUT ONCE AGAIN if the association or any other concerned individuals have views on a scheme could you please let me know so I can support all concerned as well!

By the lack of replies, I am assuming the local EV movement is once again stalling as we except petrol prices or just find it all too hard?

On the positive side, just as we had a win with ETSA I’m sure the time is good to push for a rebate scheme and a break on our EV rego fees...

Regards

Bruce

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Post by mjcrow » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 02:54

Hi Bruce,

A rebate scheme would be great, perhaps something similar to the solar rebate with a sliding scale dependent on the total kWh of batteries fitted to the vehicle (to a maximum rebate limit).

And what about being issued with trade-able Carbon Credits as well, even on an annual basis on kms travelled (as long as the batteries are charged from renewable sources).

Free registration, no stamp duty at sale of vehicle, free parking in the city, tax exemption for total cost of conversion (i.e. you would essentially extend your personal tax free threshold by the amount you spent on the conversion).

Also it would be nice to claim back the GST on all items purchased or imported for the conversion.

Come on people lets have some more suggestions, if Kevin can give the coal industry $100 Million in a brown paper bag, then there must surely be something in the kitty for us!

mjcrow


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Post by CometBoy » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 04:44

Thanks mjcrow,

Good to see someone else interested!!

I will compose a document with all the logical suggestions presented and forward to the relevant parties. Who knows, some of our suggestions maybe taken on board?

Most likely the outcome will not help those of us currently underway but could be of huge benefit to the next generation of EV builders or buyers.

The two interested players are actually following this forum so please keep the ideas coming and help us move forward....

Bruce

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Post by snakattak » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 05:13

Hi EV'ers,
I've been having a think about this and see things a little differently, given what's happening in the auto manufacturing sector, many of the big guys are announcing deliveries 2009/10 and the stage is set for changes across the board.
EV convertors, like us, need to be very careful what we wish/ask for. I believe you only get one bite at the government cherry, so it had better be the best one!
I put this item together for consideration and wonder if others see what I see?
Cheers, Mike

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Post by DVR » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 06:11

Hmmm.. That's a VERY interesting argument Snak!
I've always been of the opinion that EV's should ideally get the same hand out (more or less) as the photo-electric array rebate ($8000ish I think), or as a minimum the same as the LPG rebate(up to $4000).
However after reading your blog I'm reminded that Diesel used to be quite a bit cheaper than petrol. That is until it became a popular choice for commuters.


So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Post by CometBoy » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 13:38

Also read his (Mike Blatz) article published in August this year titled Green Challenge

http://www.google.com/notebook/public/0 ... oQx8368Lgj

I quote from it:

My challenge to (aspiring) politicians is to commit to amending the tax law, immediately after the next election as a matter of national priority, to remove the deductibilty of liquid fuels (with the possible exception of ethanol proportion).

This will have the following (beneficial) effects:

- Better, more, fuel efficient vehicle choices by corporates and employees - as they actually pay full price for the fuel.

- Potentially greater interest and uptake of new CNG, hybrid and battery electric vehicles, thus introducing such fuel efficient alternatives into the private national vehicle fleet when retired from the "corporate" fleet.

- Reduction in larger, less fuel efficient, vehicles in the national fleet.

- Reduce carbon emissions.

End quote...

Both contain very interesting logical viewpoints that I would completely agree with but in the real world I personally can’t see business losing its tax deductibility on fuel costs.

Rebate schemes are certainly not the best approach but given our situation what real options are there?

There seem to be only these options:

- Offer incentives for green products (in the form of rebates or tax reduction)

- Remove the incentives from non green products (like Mike Blatz suggests)

- Wait a hell of a long time till enough people actually go greener and then prices will drop as demand increases?

- Plus others I can’t think of!

Back to you guys...

Bruce
Last edited by CometBoy on Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 03:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mjcrow » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 19:05

I don't think big auto is going to go down the road of allowing the electricity companies to make all the money from selling us our fuel (they missed that boat the first time around). Most likely is they will develop in conjunction with existing fuel companies removable and replaceable battery packs that will be become standardised to manufacturer and fuel retailer, i.e. GM will do a deal with Shell to incorporate the zt27 battery into new cars, and the only place you can swap over (refuel) your zt27 batteries will be at a Shell service station (where you'll point and laugh at the guy with the v8 commodore paying $50 for 6L of fuel). You'll have to lease the batteries on an annual basis, but you'll be able to drive you EV form Perth to Brisbane with no problems at all, just stop at the appropriate companies fuel stations (they won't be petrol stations anymore) along the way. DIYers will probably be able to buy retro-fit kits to install the batteries in their existing EVs.

The reality of the death of the EV1 was not a lack of demand, but the loss of potential sales of ethanol (GM has invested heavily in ethanol, both in production and application) was what GM found unpalatable.

I wouldn't expect to see a Holden "Volt" released here until at least 2015-16, when it would be the second generation vehicle. I won't be holding my breath for any rebates or for the car industry to rush out EVs, both Governments and vehicle manufacturers can only see what they have to lose and not what they have to gain. GM is losing millions because they continue to fill car yards with big heavy inefficient vehicles that strangely enough simply aren't selling. Watch the TV adds for most big cars from any manufacturer and there won't be a single mention of fuel efficiency, they still don't get it. Profits won't increase until the next generation of CEO's take control and point them into the future instead of being stuck in the past.

As for rebates, what will it really cost the government right now, how many DIY electric vehicles were registered in the last 12 months in Australia, lets assume 200 (probably an over estimation, if anyone has the actual figure please post it), at $8000 per vehicle that's $1.6 Million, as we are all aware, converting a vehicle is neither simple or cheap, so a rebate set at $8000 could potentially see the number of vehicle registrations at best triple, so that's a grand total of $4.8 million a year. Not a great deal really, and think about how much mileage (pun intended) the government could get from it.

Maybe I'm on the wrong track, maybe everyone will disagree with me, but whatever big auto and big oil have planned, they certainly aren't going to put the end user or the environment first and if I can get a small amount of money form the govt to help me get my EV on the road then great.

mjcrow

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Post by snakattak » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 19:41

It's interesting to note that here we are (about to) ask for some of our own money back, when large corporates like Toyota get handed $35m just for saying the word "hybrid"!, and then....
"Mr Watanabe conceded the hybrid Camry would be more expensive than the regular model, but suggested the $35 million subsidy might be used to keep the retail price down."
Now figure this, our $35m might make the car cheaper? I don't think so, it will still make Toyota the same profit, it's just the gov will use our money to reduce the sticker price, sooooo, logic says if you want your EV/hybrid (government) "rebate", wait and buy a Toyota!
And how much cheaper will it really be?, we'll never know!
It would, of course, make more (political) sense to offer a "per car" rebate of some sort, or would it?
Let's see?
Say the gov offered $3,500 per hybrid (not only Toyota's) that would mean the $35m would stretch to 10,000 vehicles (votes?) over, say, 3 years? How effective is the gov$ (ours actually) at keeping them in power?
Far more effective is the lasting kudos and noteworthiness of "large manufacturing employer, big workforce, sustainable economic activity, etc", (gets $35m) get the picture? All the employees and their families will be politically swayed, not to mention the rest of us because we've not lost that corporate presence; all good vote catching strategy.

"And in the end much better for the environment, because this government is doing it! and don't you want to keep it that way?" (Their likely political justification rhetoric)

But getting back to our aim, an EV rebate, it needs to be understood that government is far removed from saying "EV" let alone understanding the benefits of conversion etc. The voices in the wilderness such as ours may reach individual pollies, but getting time for it to be discussed sensibly in the Cabinet is the premise of the lobbyists representing the big corporates and their agendas.....
Cheers, Mike

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Post by CometBoy » Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 21:54

Snakattak so in reading your posts you are inferring pursuing any rebate or tax offset is a waste of time (in fact dangerous) and you are not interested in trying anything outside the box??

Over the years I have been successful in getting government funding for a number of projects. I remain hopeful in this cause for future EV’ers as well.

Helping to feed our local state and federal representatives with useful facts and raise their awareness of EV is certainly something I will continue with bit by bit - despite the views of others.

Do your views represent the local association??? If so, I will stop posting here and wasting everyone’s shed time....

Bruce

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Post by mjcrow » Sun, 21 Sep 2008, 01:16

Snakattak may have very good reason to be so pessimistic, but I for one can't see the harm in trying, even if all we achieve is an understanding of what we do. If we get more than that, great!

Bruce, you aren't wasting anyone's time, if others don't want to participate, that's up to them.

mjcrow

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Post by CometBoy » Sun, 21 Sep 2008, 01:23

Exactly "PESSIMISTIC” is something NOT need to support the growth of EV’s

I think I'm out of here.

Good Luck with all the project guys.....

Cheers

Bruce

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Post by mjcrow » Sun, 21 Sep 2008, 01:27

At least keep us up to date with how it goes with the meeting Image

And how your conversion is going, not everyone is an unbeliever Image

mjcrow

PS. Bruce I've sent you a PM
Last edited by mjcrow on Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by DVR » Sun, 21 Sep 2008, 03:18

CometBoy wrote: Do your views represent the local association??? If so, I will stop posting here and wasting everyone’s shed time....
ImageWhere did that come from?
Snak certainly doesnt speak for me and I cant fathom why you would think he speaks for the association. He expressed his current opinion (I say current because as you pointed out, it changes).
CometBoy wrote: By the lack of replies, I am assuming the local EV movement is once again stalling as we except petrol prices or just find it all too hard?
Comments like this indicate a desire to get things moving and that's great, the EV movement needs go getters. How ever in spite of the recent interest we are still a small group of people. Some want to champion a cause and some are just curious and we have every shade of interest in between. That means for some, their participation will never involve more than reading the forums without posting. Ridiculing them for it wont encourage them to get involved. Others (myself included) are interested in what your doing but don't know what to add or how they can help. That doesn't equate to a lack of appreciation for what your doing.

I think you're doing good a work, but I think you also need to calm down a bit.

Don't lose the faith.
Last edited by DVR on Sat, 20 Sep 2008, 17:19, edited 1 time in total.


So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Post by snakattak » Sun, 21 Sep 2008, 06:06

Hey, cool it guys.
1. Opinions are solely my own, but I don't believe I expressed any!
2. I have no mandate to represent anyone else, individual, group etc.
3. I didn't say or imply anything pessimistic, I simply described the battlefield!
4. Information I've given is in good faith.
5. I share the desire to get something for those who are prepared to lead by action and example!
6. I wish we could all get a lot more than gov might let us have.
7. Getting anything is a plus.
8. I respect and admire anyone who, individually or collectively, can get their hands on any form of a$$istance or recognition and, more importantly, is willing to share the secret of how they did it!
9. Before travelling down any road I always prefer to see the map...
10. "not everyone is an unbeliever"? - was that referring to moi? If so I can't see how that conclusion was reached...... Image
11. "I say current (opinion) because as you pointed out, it changes", um errr, are there bits missing in this thread? Now I'm confused!
12. I sense a level of frustration coming to the surface here and I fully agree it's difficult to know what's best to do next, I certainly don't have direct answers or suggestions at this stage, nor even opinions, beyond agreeing something should come our (Ev'ers) way.
13. "At least keep us up to date with how it goes with the meeting" - please go to http://tinyurl.com/4qjn8y
14. Next meeting details are at http://tinyurl.com/6yumy6
Cheers, Mike

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Post by DVR » Sun, 21 Sep 2008, 06:28

Snak regarding point 11 I was alluding to the fact that in your post dated 4th AUG you appeared to support this and then in yeterdays post you appeared to change your tack. But there's no problem with that. At least not with me. Sorry if you though otherwise.
Part 13 you got all wrong. mjcrow was asking comet to keep us posted regarding HIS meeting with the politicians.
However since you brought it up why is the AEVA meetings discussed at tinyurl and not on the AEVA forum?


So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Post by Al » Mon, 22 Sep 2008, 09:04

Guys,
as someone who has only just started looking into EVs I think Bruce was on the right track with his first ideas for a rebate, as mentioned above:

"I think rebates would need to take two forms:

- one for new EV sales
- one for EV conversions

I favour a rebate scheme for EV conversions that would cover 50% of the cost of the battery pack (to a ceiling) and payable on successful registration of the completed EV vehicle conversion."

I think comparing the idea to the existing LPG and/or PV rebate is logical, but you could market it differently for political uptake...directly connect it to a big picture item, instead of purely an economic saving for small business.

For example, connect the idea to the CO2 emissions bandwagon in terms of improving Australian energy security and the CPRS if possible. While it is true that (for everyone except grid-connected Victorians) there exist some small CO2 emissions to be saved by Australians using more EVs and hybrids, this saving will surely grow as the Aust Emissions Trading Scheme (CPRS) kicks in over the next few years, and household power becomes less emissions intensive. More importantly, if more people turn to EVs fueled by household power then the Aust Govt (and people who elect them) can better control the 14% of national CO2 emissions that come from transport, while simultaneously reducing foreign oil imports. Moreover, if the govt really wants to help themselves down the track, then there should be incentives for EV builders, in particular local battery R&D, manufacturing, recycling and recharging facilities. These businesses need not be foreign-owned in future.

Snakattak is right with his assessment of the big US oil & auto companies...they will gradually swap some petrol pumps for battery chargers and battery swapping agencies, and we should avoid that if possible. But firstly, the big hold up for EVs is their initial price for consumers, and this mostly means the battery cost.

If consumers are assisted with the initial cost then that will open the market to more people. When EVs/hybrids make up say 10% of new car sales instead of the current <1% then they will get more say. Just need to get there first.

Best of luck,
Al







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Post by tdean » Mon, 22 Sep 2008, 17:25

snakattak wrote: It's interesting to note that here we are (about to) ask for some of our own money back, when large corporates like Toyota get handed $35m just for saying the word "hybrid"!, and then....
"Mr Watanabe conceded the hybrid Camry would be more expensive than the regular model, but suggested the $35 million subsidy might be used to keep the retail price down."
.

Yep, and the general public mentality has to change dramatically before we'll see any significant demand for EV conversions and rebates. The best performed car according to the government's "Green Vehicle Guide" is the Toyota Prius but I notice the top seller is still the Holden Commodore. Says it all really.
"We only have one future, and it will be made of our dreams, if we have the courage to challenge convention." - Soichiro Honda

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Post by Nick » Mon, 22 Sep 2008, 18:43

Unfortunatly I have been rather over committed with things in my life and have not been able to put in as much time as I would like to matters EV

Having just caught up with the discussion on this thread, I would like to say that it is great to see the passion flowing
I am also keen to see a rebate scheme for New and Converted EV's
Keep up the good work Bruce. I have been in touch with Leon Bignal but as yet ..........
The Savings and Loans Credit Union have advised me that Converting a vehicle to EV qualifies for there GREEN personal Loans, but to qualify for the Green Car Loan you have to be listed on the Green Cars Guide.
And that is a new bag of worms.

The Local Electrical Manufacturer REDARC have expressed a keen interest in manufacturing some of the electrical components (charges, BMS, Drives, DCDC).

It is discussions like this that help us to raise the political interest in what we are trying to archive.

It is good to see all opinions aired and discussed as this also helps to raise the awareness.
Last edited by Nick on Mon, 22 Sep 2008, 09:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 71monaro » Tue, 23 Sep 2008, 22:08

I read an article a while back that stated QLD had an reduction/exemption for electric vehicle registration. The article stated that there as yet had not been any electric vehicles registered in QLD. But their motor vehicle dept apparently had no 'grouping' for an owner to identify their vehicle as electric, hence no one could receive the benefit anyway. DOH!!!!!

rgds Warren
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