range extenders???

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zidia
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range extenders???

Post by zidia » Sat, 12 Jul 2008, 01:34


I am looking at converting a hilux ute to carry a substantial Qty of lithium. I was wandering about having a petrol generator in the tray to charge the batteries ( this goes against what I want in terms of green power, but I have grid connect solar being installed soon to relieve some of the guilt). I have 2 options as I see it, own an EV and an ICE, use the EV 90% and the Ice 10% or I put a petrol generator in the EV and have everything in one car.
I think that as long as the generator can handle the job and is substantially more efficient and less poluting than the ICE its a realistic solution to get people into EV's now until the technology improves.

My Q is has anyone done this all ready, what would a generator capable of extending the range to the equivilant of an ICE (or more)cost and weigh? Is there a generator on the market now suitable?

I have a lot of research to do on this topic I know, i'll check out generators and there output, how long it would take to charge the 46 3.2V 160A lithiums, how much fuel burnt, whats the difference between charge and discharge ratio while the cars running, how many K's its likely to extend the range.

So before I spent all my free time researching I thought I would see if there are some figures all ready done by some EV enthusiasts.
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Thalass
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range extenders???

Post by Thalass » Sat, 12 Jul 2008, 03:17

This isn't a new idea. The guys building the Think EV are working on a small Stirling engine genset to charge the batteries for longer range trips. I'd like to do that myself, since a stirling engine is an external combustion beast and can run on anything that'll burn. But it's probably a bit beyond me so far.

Your best bet is to go for a small diesel motor (less than 1L) and run it on veg oil or something. That's what I'll end up doing to start with, most likely. (though I'll be running on JetA1)


As far as power requirements... that depends on your system. At a bare minimum I'd say the genset would have to be capable of producing slightly more power than the motor would use while cruising along a highway at 120km/h. That way your batteries would slowly charge, unless you were accelerating or going up hill or something. But again it depends on how your system is set up, how you're driving, and at what rpm the genset is most efficient.

I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.

zidia
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range extenders???

Post by zidia » Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 01:35

Hi Thalass
well that sound really promising!
I'd like to hear from someone that has given it ago.
I'm still going ahead with my conversion and with some more info may buy a generator???
Thanks for your info
Andrew

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acmotor
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range extenders???

Post by acmotor » Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 01:51

If the plan is to extent range, not drive forever, then I would use a gen set of 50 to 80% of the cruise power of the EV.
50% would extend range by 2 1/2 to 3 times.
No point in carting full batteries around.

A gen set of more than 2kW becomes big, heavy and expensive anyway.

Use an inverter type gen set.

I'm not a full bottle on stirlings but a 2kw unit would be very big and not very efficient ?

It does not make sense to charge batteries with a gen set while driving. You end up with a prius. Sort of defeats the point of EV.

Probably made myself unpopular there !
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range extenders???

Post by zidia » Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 02:41

I have seen calculations that would have my car travel 68km on batteries alone, other cal for solar to extend the range by 15km, thats 83km so far. I would not need an ICE if I can extend that to approx 150kms. Its too expensive and heavy to double the battery pack but if a generator can even do 70-80% extension on that range I would stick with one car.   this is a call out to anyone that has tried a generator or knows some statistics, would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Andrew

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Thalass
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range extenders???

Post by Thalass » Tue, 22 Jul 2008, 18:22

A stirling engine powerful enough to turn a large generator would indeed itself be very large and heavy - though it ought to still be efficient.


And you're right about a series hybrid defeating the purpose of having an EV in the first place. But sometimes you're in the middle of nowhere and there isn't a powerpoint within a hundred kilometres! That's where a series hybrid would be great.

Even driving along the highway you could get by with, say 100km battery range. At least in the east where there's no shortage of towns where you could top up the batteries. (Just like that EV in Europe that went from Denmark to France over a couple of days)


But for my purposes I'll need some kind of genset on board. At least in the short term, until those kick arse future batteries show up.

For long trips, a genset built into a camping trailer would be ideal. You were going to tow the camper anyway, right? But I like to go out on shorter trips in the bush, too, which would need probably no more than 300km range all up.
Last edited by Thalass on Tue, 22 Jul 2008, 08:29, edited 1 time in total.
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range extenders???

Post by Taffy » Wed, 10 Sep 2008, 21:09

An old thread but i have a question with regards to inboard range extenders. Ignoring the trailer set up for the moment.
Do these come under new emission laws? Or does that you have a medium batteries/caps between the output of the motor and the electrical motor mean that you can claim that your vehicle is battery powered and not an IC?

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acmotor
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range extenders???

Post by acmotor » Thu, 11 Sep 2008, 03:44

General rule seems to be that for a conversion the ADRs / emission standards at the time of manufacture of the original vehicle still apply. If your ICE range extender meets these then it can be argued that it is acceptable, after all it will be no worse than the original vehicle.
If it is an 'individually constructed' build from ground up then the ADRs and emission standards will be the latest ones.
It could also be argued that a current model, commercially made gen set as a unit must meet current requirements.
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range extenders???

Post by Taffy » Thu, 11 Sep 2008, 03:55

I thought this might be the case, which makes things very difficult to make a range extender. As you will want a small compact set up.

For those who dont know, the ADR emission laws are based on EU standards such as Euro 4, etc. We call them 79/00 etc. For any new car to be sold here they must pass these emission laws, which costs a crap load to do and get proof of. So anyone making a 1 off car needs to get an engine off a new car from the past 3 (sometimes 5 depending on model if that engine was kept unchanged and still passing) years. These engines cannot be from an imported car.

This rules out motorbikes (different laws to cars, not a hope in hell. Ask the clubman builders they tried).
This rules out a cheap generator from bunnings installed in the side of the engine bay.

I dont actually know any really small engines that could be used. Most take up a large part of the engine bay. Will go looking and see if i can find anything, but i dont like the chances of solving this 1 cheaply.


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range extenders???

Post by acmotor » Thu, 11 Sep 2008, 04:15

I guess this is why push trailers or gen sets on trailers are a practical solution to NCOP requirements. You could always go for more / lighter batteries or solar assist.
A gen set sitting in the back of the ute (after inspection) must be OK ? Image
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range extenders???

Post by Taffy » Thu, 11 Sep 2008, 04:21

lol i was actually thinking. Just go into the inspection with a powerpoint on the outside of the car and say the generator powers err power tools. The just connect the output of the generator to the recharge unit after it returns home.
Or just leave it out when you go in, and reinstall when you get home. Even if u have to trailer it both ways.
Just so long as u put a nice exhaust on the system, and possible some emissions feedback syste, you could get a fairly quiet and slightly more enviro friendly set up.

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range extenders???

Post by acmotor » Thu, 11 Sep 2008, 04:27

That would be fine to my way of thinking ! Image

Must say though, I shudder at having anything more to do with ICE than I have to nowadays. Too many years of it in the past.
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range extenders???

Post by Taffy » Thu, 11 Sep 2008, 04:34

i'll blame it on being young and dumb.
I am currently building a lotus 7 replica (plan was and possible still is to go ICE) and looking at it the cost to get the performance levels up is stupidly high. So i was tossing around the idea of putting in a small generator to charge into a cap bank (large enough to give a flying lap or two at close to full power). The generator to give enough power for high way driving.

Not exactly green but would be a step until some higher kw/kg batteries come about without slowing the performance of the car.

Not sure about the cost of such a cap bank as im just tossing ideas, hopefully will get to test the cap bank as a power source with the SAE car during testing in November.

edit: So a little different to the ute plan. Image
edit2: The aim is try for a system that costs the same or less then the ICE set up. Its already been proven it can be done for $60K, which i dont have!
Last edited by Taffy on Wed, 10 Sep 2008, 18:37, edited 1 time in total.

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range extenders???

Post by iwyze » Tue, 16 Sep 2008, 14:10

There are a few examples thus far in the US.
I too have been considering this concept and acknowledge that there are pros and cons to the idea. For the practicality of doing the odd trip across town and worried about range I would hitch the trailer and accept the inefficient for the price of using one car.

Here is a Long Ranger generator trailer (commissioned by Toyota for the Toyota RAV4)
http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

Another example from AC Propulsion - Tzero prototype
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages ... allery.htm

Link to a general interest site on EV Trailers
http://evmaine.org/html/ev_trailers.html
Last edited by iwyze on Wed, 17 Sep 2008, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.

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