Australia’s first electric supercar!

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AMPrentice
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Australia’s first electric supercar!

Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 04 Apr 2012, 22:04

As for no one caring outside our little group then why do you the lies about people writing you "Dear Nanny we are so upset about EV forum members having opinions?" You contradict yourself again.
Rational Advocates? the majority of the public fall into the hands of criminal organisations called political parties. You sound like Tony Abbots twin brother, full of it, over-opinionated and mainstream Herald Sun-nish definitely not rational in any way or truthful.

Marcon Polo wrote
"No one wants to be exposed to.." - exactly what was stated about you by many members in past threads who no longer venture here, so dont preach what you cant do or judge people as you suffer from severe Pathological egotism which in majority of cases like yourself beyond any professional help.
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Post by evric » Wed, 04 Apr 2012, 22:12

OK, That's enough personal stuff...let's get back to EVs.
Keep this sort of conversation to Private Mail.
Eric
Prius Plug-in Conversion: http://www.evplus.com.au ...Holden Barina EV: http://www.evric.kestar.com.au

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Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 04 Apr 2012, 22:21

Here is what can compete with a Tesla, much better finish.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/artega/201 ... 05837.html
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Post by marcopolo » Wed, 04 Apr 2012, 22:22

AMPrentice wrote: "our little group"
This consists largely of you, and less than a handful of fellow cranks!

What's more important to you, venting your spleen against those you dislike (which seems to include pretty much everyone), or helping to promote EV acceptance and development?

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Post by AMPrentice » Wed, 04 Apr 2012, 22:31

you still going? theres only one person we dislike thats you everyone else is respectable and normal in comparison. I wont support Defense pocket lined manufacturers thats all dont try and twist everything with your diseased scone. Fellow cranks?! here we go again anyone who doesnt agree with your Ego is inferior or misled, you have a seriously obvious pattern here. Our little group is this whole community that you were referring to and thats quite an insult to us all.


Here is an example of Australia going wrong....

The Future Fund, the government fund designed to invest Australians' tax dollars to ensure the future prosperity of Australia, invests in companies that manufacture nuclear weapons. The fund invests in companies like Honeywell International1 which is responsible for assembling nuclear weapons in the United States arsenal [2]

[2] 'U.S. Nuclear Weapons Research, Development, Testing, and Production, and Naval Nuclear Propulsion Facilities', Brookings Institute. 16 August, 2002.

Today, David Gonski is set to take office as the new Chair of the Future Fund. So far the Future Fund has gotten away with these unethical, immoral and possibly illegal investments because it has never had to defend them publicly.

--All that money can provide everyone with an EV Supercar of our choice and then some.

Then theres....

Over the next three years, as the Minerals Resources Rent Tax brings in $10.6 billion from the mining industry, around $8.5 billion will be handed back to them in tax concessions and loopholes!

--That can provide 1.5kw solar systems for 4.25 million homes in Oz.
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Post by Faz » Wed, 04 Apr 2012, 23:08

marcopolo wrote:Because outside of a few hobbyists, there is no public support for EV's. This is partly due to the realatively cheap price of gasoline and LPG, but mostly because of the lack of an effective lobby group.   
I'm not interested in fueling or joining the personal argument going on in this thread but, on the topic of public adoption of EV's.
I believe the lack of public support is purely because the technology isn't up to scratch yet.

Currently EV's are slower, heavier and have no where near the range of their ICE equivalents. This is before the extra price is even factored in.
Am I interested in owning an EV, yes. Do I think they are good for the environment, not really. If the debate for EV ownership is environmental concerns then buy a 50cc scooter instead. Over the life of the vehicle I will bet my life savings that a 50cc scooter will have far less environmental impact than an electric car.

So I guess we have a chicken or the egg senario. For big business to develop EV technology there has to be market. For there to be a market there has to be an improvement in the technology.

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Post by marcopolo » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 00:35

Faz wrote: I believe the lack of public support is purely because the technology isn't up to scratch yet.
Well,.. it's true, EV energy storage technology is still in a relatively early stage of development. But, in many countries, including the USA, Japan, ROC (Taiwan)France, Norway, Israel and etc, EV technology is making real progress.

It's probably more positive to think of EV's as a technology, rather than pure EV's. In this way, hybrids and EREV's are included in the mix. The GM Volt/Ampera, is an excellent example of an EV which can, (Ampera) at the drivers option, also operate on gasoline, providing unlimited range. These vehicles provide a bridge between the old ICE technology, and future EV transport.
Am I interested in owning an EV, yes. Do I think they are good for the environment, not really. If the debate for EV ownership is environmental concerns then buy a 50cc scooter instead. Over the life of the vehicle I will bet my life savings that a 50cc scooter will have far less environmental impact than an electric car.
First let me congratulate you on your interest in owning an EV ! (if nothing else, it's great fun!) The question of how good EV's are for the environment is complicated by a number of factors, but it's safe to say that they can't be worse than ICE equivalents!

Comparing, a 50 cc scooter to a car, isn't very realistic. A 50 cc ICE is in relevant terms very, very pollutant! You could, for very little more buy a Electric scooter or an E-Bike. [/quote]
So I guess we have a chicken or the egg scenario. For big business to develop EV technology there has to be market. For there to be a market there has to be an improvement in the technology.


Not at all ! Nearly every major Auto-manufacturer, is building models incorporating EV technology! Gm's Volt sold 2235 vehicles in the US last month. The Ampera version has over 7000 export orders confirmed.

The Renault Kangoo EV will reach 25,000 sales this year.The Zoe EV is already selling as many as can be produced.

This momentum will increase with the release of the 500+ klm range, Tesla S.

Even Porsche, is building models with EV technology.

Like all new technology, EV technology is initially available in more expensive versions, becoming more accessible to the lower end of the market fairly quickly.

You and I are living in exciting times.


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Post by bladecar » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 15:02

Yes, marcopolo,

I like what you say and agree with it. While I know my Vectrix is limited, I look down on, as I regally pass by, the little rraaaarr machines of days gone by (but not enough days).

There are numerous scooters which are very similar in styling, and not much smaller than, the vectrix. I look for the exhaust pipe on all these machines, and unfortunately, it's only mine that doesn't have one.

You are right! Thanks for the info on sales of ev cars or part-thereof. It's obvious that the day of the electric car is upon us. From Formula 1 to the top-of-the-range rich-people's cars, only the electric-electronic portion of some of them makes them super-attractive performance-wise.

800-1200nm of torque sort of stuff, simply because electic power can hyper the usual output of high-performance cars. That will never go away now. It would be like throwing away wine and going back to beer.

p.s. Only yesterday, as I sat at the lights, I could not help but note the noise and the exhaust fumes of the vehicles around me. The cars that are worn or out of tune, the truckie things, the individuals in their large 4WD's roaring away, often to be waiting just down the road at the next set of lights. All the while, 159C/L for unleaded. It brings a smile to my dial. But mostly, I check out the drivers and decide which of them know the cost of filling their machines, the wives who use the plastic or whose husbands fill the vehicle, or vice verse. Eventually, only industry will save them from themselves.
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Post by Johny » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 15:32

The "Tonka toys" get me. How can anyone drive around ALONE in 2.7 tonnes (Eg. Land Rover Discovery), treat it like a sports car in terms of accelerating and braking, and be comfortable in what they will tell their grandkids. Sorry to anyone who fits this category - but I get the feeling that they aren't reading this forum.

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Post by AMPrentice » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 17:38

Johny wrote: The "Tonka toys" get me. How can anyone drive around ALONE in 2.7 tonnes (Eg. Land Rover Discovery), treat it like a sports car in terms of accelerating and braking, and be comfortable in what they will tell their grandkids. Sorry to anyone who fits this category - but I get the feeling that they aren't reading this forum.


QFT!

Unfortunately this wasteful mentality has spread throughout many commuters and will be hard to undo as the Gov. wont penalise SUV or 4x4 drivers that never need to go offroad. We have great roads that most front wheel drives can attempt without issues.

Supporting EVs has to also take into account that the extra clutter is not sustainable for efficient commuting. We need sexy light and efficient not mundane and quirky. Manufacturers have to target EVs to look slick and sporty much like Honda and BMW have been doing successfully for 20 years.

A compact version (mx5 sized) of something like this is what "well off" local companies should build to sell EVs to single road users since the energy required to make a sports coupe is pretty much on par with any small car when its done from scratch. Its super sexy and would sell like hotcakes even though its 6 years old now. http://www.supercars.net/cars/3426.html

On the 50cc moped front I also agree that is more likely a scenario than most would care to think if there is a collapse. I see some older outcasts of society commuting with 49cc engined mountain bikes and this might become part of the norm if oil goes skyward. Similar to most developing countries where small engined contraptions swarm the place.
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Post by Faz » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 20:33

marcopolo wrote:The question of how good EV's are for the environment is complicated by a number of factors, but it's safe to say that they can't be worse than ICE equivalents!

Comparing, a 50 cc scooter to a car, isn't very realistic. A 50 cc ICE is in relevant terms very, very pollutant! You could, for very little more buy a Electric scooter or an E-Bike.


A 50cc scooter might be very pollutant when running. But the environmental impact of producing such a vehicle would be less than the impact of producing the batteries to power an EV. Which then need replacing every 10 years (or less).
It is short sighted to look at just what is coming out the exhaust pipe. There is a big environmental impact from the production of an EV and the ongoing battery replacement over the life of the vehicle.
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Post by Johny » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 20:51

Faz wrote:A 50cc scooter might be very pollutant when running. But the environmental impact of producing such a vehicle would be less than the impact of producing the batteries to power an EV. Which then need replacing every 10 years (or less).
From the Swiss Federal Laboratories for Materials Testing and Research (or EMPA) article in Gizmag.
http://www.gizmag.com/empa-study-enviro ... car/16181/

"Fuel source is the key
The investigation shows that, if the power used to charge the battery is not derived from purely hydroelectric sources, then it is primarily the operation of the EV that has an environmental impact, exactly as is the case with conventionally fueled vehicles. In other words, the size of the environmental footprint depends on which sources of power are used to “fuel” the EV. Contrary to initial expectations that the manufacture of the batteries could negate the advantages of electric drive vehicles, the Li-ion battery itself was actually found to have a limited effect."

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Post by Richo » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 20:54

Richo wrote:Varley are only contributing the battery and chassis.

evric wrote: The chassis and body come from www.superlitecars.com in the US.
So what's left - motor and controller from Australia ?


Well that would mean only the batteries Image

So I guess in all reality the only thing stopping an Australian sports car being built was someone with a fat cheque book and a determination to do it.
Everything else was already available.
Good on Varley for having the balls to do it.

It would have to be a really harsh incentive for Soccer mums to consider dropping the SUV for a 50cc scooter.
What do you think the changeover point will be - $4/L of petrol???
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by Johny » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 20:55

Assuming your ICE scooter got 3L/100km.
Assume 33km per day, 365 days/year, 10 years.
3650 litres of fuel. 3.6 tonnes.

If you used the $6000 it would have cost you for the fuel over 10 years to pay for batteries and a subsidised rooftop PV array, your environmental impact would be massively smaller than running a fuel burner. (IMO) If the PV array sounds suss then just buy green power and leave it to the Power companies to solve the problem of supplying it.

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Post by marcopolo » Thu, 05 Apr 2012, 21:38

bladecar wrote:... their large 4WD's roaring away, often to be waiting just down the road at the next set of lights. All the while, 159C/L for unleaded.


I share your antipathy for urban SUV vehicles, that are either not designed to travel off-road, or never leave the suburbs. Of all the stupid fashion statements, that's got be a prize contender!
Faz wrote: environmental impact of producing such a vehicle would be less than the impact of producing the batteries to power an EV. Which then need replacing every 10 years (or less).
Not really, the raw materials required to produce modern lithium combination batteries is not a particularly pollutant process, and the batteries themselves are almost 100% recyclable.

Even a EV running on power generated from a coal-fired power station, is less pollutant than a normal ICE. Many EV owners, (myself included) choose to charge EV's from the power created by solar panels (GTF).

Or many EV owners (myself included) who are fortunate enough to live in the country, build agri-waste biomass-converters, to power your EV and some types of Farm machinery and transport!

EV technology provides lot's of choices, lot's of savings, both for your pocket and the environment!

Visit Ross Blade in Castlemaine Vic, and experience for yourself the thrill of 'driving on electrons;!

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Post by Richo » Fri, 06 Apr 2012, 00:04

The Electrokahna is on later this month in Perth.
Anyone is welcome to visit and go for a drive in an eV.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 06 Apr 2012, 05:35

Faz wrote: A 50cc scooter might be very pollutant when running. But the environmental impact of producing such a vehicle would be less than the impact of producing the batteries to power an EV. Which then need replacing every 10 years (or less).


I agree a whole life cycle method of evaluation should be used if you are really concerned about the environmental impact

the average service life for a 50cc scooter is 6 months, due in part to owners losing interest, and the poor build quality

A manufacturer can profitably sell scooters with a warranty for 2 years/20'000km when the design life is under 12 months because of the customers losing interest factor

If you want to commute on a bike for environmental reasons, don't get a 50cc.
Actually, don't get a 50cc period....

Bikes are cheaper and use less fuel (less CO2, but more of everything else), but if you are serious about using one for commuting, get a licence and a 250cc

you will get something that lasts, has brakes and suspension that works, can do the speed limit, and you get to learn road craft and proper emergency braking technique

a yamaha scorpio is a 225cc single, can do 140kmh continuous, has a design life of 15 years, and is easy to maintain.
It also only costs $4500 brand new

Or you can get a second hand Vectrix for $5000 with similar performance (but better brakes)

The environmental impact from manufacture of an EV is rather overstated
LiFePO4 batteries are mostly aluminum and copper
it has 3% Lithium by mass (which is extracted by heating brine)
theres phosphorus and flourine, but the quantities are small enough that the impact is small

The embedded energy of a traction battery is about the same as that of a modern car engine

The battery service life case is also understated,
The first LiFePO4 traction battery bought in Australia is still running like new after 6 years.

I ride a bike for my daily commute (modified Vectrix)

I started with a 50cc (EV equivalent) and I wish I had gone straight for a larger bike
It would have been cheaper than trying to keep that thing going

Matt
Matt
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1999 Prius - needs batt
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Post by antiscab » Fri, 06 Apr 2012, 05:50

marcopolo wrote: Even a EV running on power generated from a coal-fired power station, is less pollutant than a normal ICE


I concur:

the average CO2 output for black coal is 1kg/kwh of electricity delivered

its 1.3kg/kwh for brown coal and 0.7kg/kwh for natural gas (CH4)

but the devil is in the detail, its not the average we as a consumer should be interested in, its the incremental.

the incremental increase of drawing an additional kwh from the grid depends largely upon grid loading, which depends upon time of day. It also depends upon transients (like output from renewables or change in grid load) but that is difficult to take advantage of without a smarter grid.

here in Perth, on the SWIS grid, there isn't enough peaking plant capacity in summer, but plenty of base load capacity.

This means that in summer, the incremental increase of drawing an additional kwh after 9pm falls to 0g/kwh as the coal base loaders are having to dump steam anyway due to being ramped up to full power in the day, but not being able to ramp back down fast enough.

Charging at night is and will be for some time cleaner than using an ICE for transportation energy

changing to completely gas internal combustion turbines will move the peak kg/kwh figures closer to the average.

increasing the proliferation of renewable energy lowers the carbon intensity across the board.

There are other effects that are usually ignored, like the extraction and refining processes, which are included for fuels for electricity in the kg/kwh value, but ignored from transportation fuels (avgas, bunker fuel,LPG, petrol and diesel)

Matt
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Post by marcopolo » Fri, 06 Apr 2012, 09:28

antiscab wrote: Or you can get a second hand Vectrix for $5000 with similar performance (but better brakes)


The Vectrix VX1, was a EV maxi-scooter with a great deal of potential. The battery technology and other defects were due to the bike being rushed into production, before it was thoroughly tested. Although Vectrix raised nearly $1,000,000,000, the corporation was bankrupted by over-expansion, unrealistic marketing and service plans, and a CEO with a bombastic egotistical management style, coupled with incredible incompetence.

It's a shame because Vectrix could have been the Tesla of the 2 wheeled market.

I must sincerely commend you Matt on successfully developing a Lithium battery replacement kit, thereby keeping some of these machines alive.

In one of those weird coincidences, Vectrix sold approximately the same number of units as the Tesla Roadster!   

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Post by AMPrentice » Fri, 06 Apr 2012, 20:39

''There are other effects that are usually ignored, like the extraction and refining processes, which are included for fuels for electricity in the kg/kwh value, but ignored from transportation fuels (avgas, bunker fuel,LPG, petrol and diesel)''

Also there are subsidies for companies transporting ICE fuel to petrol stations yet we are charged twice for this, first our tax money into the subsidies and then paying for its transportation cost anyway in the final price.

Masses still have the backward thinking that EVs are not as efficient as ICE thanks no doubt to the oil/mining industry spreading rumors to blind the public.

I wonder what is happening with the Honda Dream or Postie EV version?
I know that Asian countries would embrace it even better than here especially after so many Honda Dream fakes ruining Hondas reputation.
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Post by Faz » Tue, 10 Apr 2012, 23:08

Richo wrote: It would have to be a really harsh incentive for Soccer mums to consider dropping the SUV for a 50cc scooter.


Don't get me started on Soccer mums and my beliefs about population control! Image

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Post by manlytom » Wed, 11 Apr 2012, 02:30

antiscab wrote:
Faz wrote: If you want to commute on a bike for environmental reasons, don't get a 50cc.
Actually, don't get a 50cc period....

......

Or you can get a second hand Vectrix for $5000 with similar performance (but better brakes)

The environmental impact from manufacture of an EV is rather overstated
LiFePO4 batteries are mostly aluminum and copper
it has 3% Lithium by mass (which is extracted by heating brine)
theres phosphorus and flourine, but the quantities are small enough that the impact is small

The embedded energy of a traction battery is about the same as that of a modern car engine

The battery service life case is also understated,
The first LiFePO4 traction battery bought in Australia is still running like new after 6 years.

I ride a bike for my daily commute (modified Vectrix)

I started with a 50cc (EV equivalent) and I wish I had gone straight for a larger bike
It would have been cheaper than trying to keep that thing going

Matt


Seems you guys in WA never got around to get on a Zero Motorcycle. They are great fun and have lost the teething problems of the Vectrix etc. Sure not made here ... maybe we get into making a great EV motorbike after all ?

loving my 2011 Zero S

Tom

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 11 Apr 2012, 03:01

the Zero S looks good, how much did yours cost?

Matt
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Post by manlytom » Thu, 12 Apr 2012, 15:44

Hi Matt

the Zeros 2010 RRP was AUD13,000. I got a demo at discounted pricing. I worked out that despite the higher initial price it would be cheaper within 3 years. Considering current interest rates and petrol prices, servicing etc.

What really convinced me was a test ride compared to a test ride on an ICE 250CC Jap motard. On the ICE I kept shifting up / down all the time - especially in city traffic. On the Zero -- no gears -- just go and loads of fun to be had. Once past the initial accellaration that is tamed down it goes very snappy. but you guys know that ... the EV grin ... the nice, linear torque band ....


As we ran into problems with the BMS/motor on the 2010 model Zero replaced it with a 2011 model. This was easier for them than trying to get the local ICE dealer try and fix and electric bike ....
guess in future we will need to build up some in country expertise to service all kind of EVs including the Zeros.

From feedback on http://electricmotorcycleforum.com it seems that the 2012 models are great. from lower spec models XU to 9kW high range/speed models. And they really are being produced and sold ! So not just a pre-order business .... anyway, for Australia not available yet or pricing clarified. Guess we need to rally more interest before we can get them over here...

cheers

T
http://www.facebook.com/ZeroElectricMoto

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 13 Apr 2012, 00:10

it does look pretty good, I will be up for a new bike in a few years

how tamed down is the initial acceleration?
and wtf would they do that!!
That could be a real sales killer

my only gripe with the vectrix is the starting acceleration is low and backed off, which makes splitting difficult

I can't find anywhere that says what the max power of the Zero S is, do you happen to know?
everyone seems to concentrate on the 88mph top speed, but that only takes 20kw to do

it has a 420A controller, but no mention of system voltage, or battery current limit

As far as teething problems go, you don't really get to see them until a year or two after the first sales - so too early to tell

out of curiosity, what went wrong with your 2010 model?

I don't know of any EV bike that is made here, they're all imported

Matt
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2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
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