Odometer tax?

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jonescg
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Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Tue, 10 Mar 2015, 16:34

Seems Oregon is trying a more sophisticated "user pays" system for collecting road taxes.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... -gas-taxes

I can see this as being a viable way of making people who use the roads more, pay more. Although the OBDII connection seems like overkill. Surely an odometer reading every time you pay your rego would be easier? If they can't get it out of your fuel bill, then they have to get it from toll roads and the like.
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Odometer tax?

Post by reecho » Tue, 10 Mar 2015, 20:41

OBD less likely to be tampered with I guess....

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Odometer tax?

Post by Richo » Tue, 10 Mar 2015, 21:00

There's no escaping the inevitable Image

Taxed until you die Image

And the roads around Perth are still crap.
Pot hole there - man hole sticking up 2" there.
No wonder SUV's are the preference.

Conversions don't have OBDII
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Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Wed, 11 Mar 2015, 00:23

Richo wrote: There's no escaping the inevitable Image

Taxed until you die Image

And the roads around Perth are still crap.
Pot hole there - man hole sticking up 2" there.
No wonder SUV's are the preference.

Conversions don't have OBDII
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Man, the roads around Perth are the best I have ever driven on. I cannot think of a single road that's unworthy of a car or motorcycle; they are just so fantastically engineered.

If you want sh*t roads, visit northern NSW. Image
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Odometer tax?

Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Mar 2015, 20:33

jonescg wrote:Man, the roads around Perth are the best I have ever driven on.
Ah you'll have to move to the slums Image

Some of the roads are so rutted that the car drives round the bends by itself.
Other states could be worse.
Still suggests the tax is not used effectively or worse we aren't being taxed enough Image

I vote we invest in more R&D for flying cars to cut down on road tax.

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Odometer tax?

Post by acmotor » Thu, 12 Mar 2015, 17:42

I'm with Chris here.
Perth roads generally are good.
Sure there a bad examples and whinges about congestion at times but you should visit some other states/countries/cities and see that they too have good and bad roads.
...and a tollway is never a good road. It may be well made but it is there for the wrong reason. Keep them out of WA.

Fuel is the best tax for roads. There is a very direct relationship between fuel use and km travelled + road wear and tear. Vehicle weight is the other major factor but is also largely related to fuel use.
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Odometer tax?

Post by mikedufty » Thu, 12 Mar 2015, 23:41

But how do you distinguish between the fuel going into EVs and general household electricity in order to tax it. And what about those sly people charging from solar panels? They might avoid tax altogether.

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Odometer tax?

Post by acmotor » Thu, 12 Mar 2015, 23:52

Oh simple. Don't charge EVs...... at this stage. Image
After all, my EV does maybe 1/10,000 the damage of a triple road train, to both the roads and the environment.

The key word being fuel, as in a hydrocarbon, to be inefficiently burnt and not electrical energy, particularly that sourced from PV and WT.
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Odometer tax?

Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 13 Mar 2015, 00:50

" what about those sly people charging from solar panels? They might avoid tax altogether."

shhhhh Image They don't exist it's imposable Image

The roads around Brisbane are not to bad though some can turn into a pot hole littered washed out mess after we have a big rain event. There is one road I use regularly that can go from a ok smooth ish 80kmh road one day . Then we get a dumping of rain. Two days after It will have hundreds of pot holes some so big you could loose a car down them Image Last time it happened there was about 3 cars on the side of the road changing wheels they blew out in the mega pot holes. Its like they used marshmallow instead of road base.

Would hate to put the spindly Imiev wheel into one..
Last edited by offgridQLD on Thu, 12 Mar 2015, 13:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Sun, 14 Jan 2018, 11:40

Dragging up an old thread here.
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/stand-by- ... 0hazy.html
In light of the current energy minister's article in the Age about EVs (which both surprises and confuses us) discussion has once again re-emerged about an odometer tax, or basically, a pay-per-use system for roads.

Personally I'm in favour of a per-kilometre scheme. The more you use the publicly funded resource (roads) the more you pay. Currently the fuel excise is about 4.2 c/km. The AEVA has suggested in submissions to the government that a 1c/km levy be introduced to all vehicles AND retain the fuel excise for ICE vehicles. It's a carrot and stick approach to make the switch.

What are your thoughts?
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by g4qber » Sun, 14 Jan 2018, 12:28

Do heavier vehicles have more tax ?
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Sun, 14 Jan 2018, 12:50

They currently pay higher rego fees based on weight, yes. And on toll roads around the world heavy vehicles pay significantly more than cars and motorcycles.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Sun, 14 Jan 2018, 17:17

Some numbers to contemplate -

The current fuel excise is paid as a cents per litre on all unleaded and diesel fuel sold in Australia to road going customers (i.e. mine sites don't pay it).
The federal government collects about $12 billion a year from the sale of petrol and diesel, and the reason for the excise was to partially find the cost of road projects and maintenance.
The revenue collected really just goes into consolidated revenue, so it's not exactly a direct levy - beside, federal road expenditure is about twice that figure.
Here is an old report on expenditure: https://bitre.gov.au/publications/2011/files/is_040.pdf where it was already exceeding revenue collected.

So roads cost money to make, maintain, and protect people from crashing into things. That cost is paid for by us the taxpayer. The fuel excise, which has not been indexed with inflation since the Howard years, was intended to cover these costs as a user-pays system.

So now that we're making the switch to EVs, the fuel excise revenue will start to drop, and the federal government will need to find an alternative source of funds to pay for roads and their upkeep.

I've always felt that this country spends waaaay too much on roads and road infrastructure like tunnels and motorways - these monstrosities are the equivalent of expanding your belt to alleviate obesity. But they do need maintenance, and charging those who use them seems like the fairest way to do it. Multiply by the mass of the vehicle to discourage heavy vehicles like Hummers (and Model X?).
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by reecho » Sun, 14 Jan 2018, 19:23

A price per km is fairer all round but the government could make the rate for EV's lower as an incentive....As CJ mentions it was never indexed so it hasn't kept up with CPI. The sticking point is that EV's will be (at least short term) heavier in weight than an equivalent ICE vehicle and will have the potential to do more damage.

But I do believe in user pays for just about anything. Big trucks should pay (quite a bit) more for road user charges as they do the most damage.

It's not a new thing and many countries have had RUC for ages. New Zealand's model with diesel rebates is dumb from an emissions point of view.

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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 10:20

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-15/e ... ng/9235564

Perhaps the most disingenuous headline from the ABC? More like, "Breaking the road revenue model" I guess.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by rhills » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 10:31

I heard this morning's ABC Radio Perth stand-in presenter announce this saying that "because of the popularity of Electric Vehicles" the government fuel tax revenues were falling. Have EV sales suddenly grown by several orders of magnitude while I was out bush over the past fortnight? I wanted to ring in and correct her but I was late for work as it was: I understand that falling fuel tax revenues are due to steady improvements in vehicle fuel efficiency, not EVs so far - there is a concern that as EVs grow in popularity they will further erode fuel tax revenue, but IMHO there can't be enough EVs operating in Oz to make a material difference to this income stream yet.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 10:56

rhills wrote:
Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 10:31
I heard this morning's ABC Radio Perth stand-in presenter announce this saying that "because of the popularity of Electric Vehicles" the government fuel tax revenues were falling. Have EV sales suddenly grown by several orders of magnitude while I was out bush over the past fortnight? I wanted to ring in and correct her but I was late for work as it was: I understand that falling fuel tax revenues are due to steady improvements in vehicle fuel efficiency, not EVs so far - there is a concern that as EVs grow in popularity they will further erode fuel tax revenue, but IMHO there can't be enough EVs operating in Oz to make a material difference to this income stream yet.
The drop in revenue from the fuel excise is mainly because it hasn't been indexed to inflation since early 2000s. Combine that with a 2l/100 km improvement in average fuel economy and you have reduced revenue.

EVs have had practically no impact on the fuel excise revenue, and probably won't until they make up more than 5% of the fleet.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by rhills » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 11:05

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the facts :)

If you get a chance, you or Richard may want to listen to the podcast of this morning's ABC Perth show (starting from 8:30am) and perhaps ring in today or tomorrow to correct any misinformation. If you've not done so already of course!

Cheers,

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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by Richo » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 13:02

I did hear the ABC mention it on the radio around 6am.
My guess is they want a scapegoat to blame for the bad state of affairs with our revenue in general.
Not including the AEVA ppl I have only seen ONE(1) person with an ev in the past year.
So I don't know where this suddenly flurry of ev's went to drop the revenue.

Most days I drive on something that looks like a puzzle.
I guess you can call it a road.
The reason they haven't fixed it is due to the loss of road tax revenue from electric car sales. :lol:

I vote $/km/kg
That way trucks etc pay more than cars and scooter etc.
Who checks the speedo?
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by Richo » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 13:09

All irrelevant tho.
On the TV show last week "10 things.. about the future" - we are getting flying cars!
The irony was that they thought we needed some complex swarm algorithm to stop people crashing into each other.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by reecho » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 14:58

Yeah ringing us Perth people up at 3am for an interview could be an issue... :-)

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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 15:28

A statement on the ABC story can be found here:
http://www.aeva.asn.au/content/evs-and-road-use-charges

basically, we think it's fair that everybody contributes to road maintenance, but we've also paid a small fortune for our EVs already, so come back when EVs make up more than 5% of the fleet.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by jonescg » Mon, 15 Jan 2018, 16:32

I actually did an interview with ABC Darwin about this issue, and the announcer kept suggesting that EV owners were free-loading, or being subsidised...

About 6000 plug-in vehicles in a fleet of over 13 million, and somehow we're responsible for the decline in road revenues! While I suggested most of us have no problem with a pay-per-use arrangement, she perhaps made it sound like I 'wanted to pay more' (!). Thankfully the second speaker from Charles Darwin University re-iterated the fact that we've gone out of our way (against surprising odds) to buy a vehicle that doesn't pollute; the last thing we should be doing is penalising EV owners!

It's like African gang crime or something... a beat-up if ever I smelled one.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by Richo » Tue, 16 Jan 2018, 12:36

There was another segment last night on the Drum on ABC on the same subject. (Adam Spencer)
It seemed more objective rather than beating the eV community into the ground.
But they went off topic a bit about autonomous vehicles.
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Re: Odometer tax?

Post by Chuq » Wed, 17 Jan 2018, 10:24

Interestingly enough, I looked into the origins of the fuel excise and found this general information as to how an excise differs from a tax:
As a deterrent, excise is typically directed towards three broad categories of harm:

* health risks from abusing toxic substances (thus making it a kind of sumptuary tax); typically this includes tobacco and alcohol
* environmental damage (thus acting as a green tax); this usually includes fossil fuels (such as petrol)
* socially damaging / morally objectionable activity (thus making it a type of vice tax or sin tax); usually this includes gambling, and can include prostitution (including solicitation and pimping) in places where it is legal

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