WA Electric Highways!

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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 05:08

Gabz wrote: because only people who live near the CBD will drive EVs Image or treat them as private local gas stations. I'm not sure how there location has an effect on this expect there are more people to abuse the system. or maybe it's only city people abuse the system Image

unless you put the charger literally in the middle of nowhere then someone could take advantage.
No what I am saying is when you purchase a Ev most people use it for local driving say 95% of the time and home slow charging off peek works great for every one. Where we need fast charging is when we take long trips so stopping to charge for many hrs to complete your trip VS an additional 1/2hr fast charging is the missing link to make the distances viable.

If you have to drive 50km to stand at a fast charger for 30 min then return home with 50% soc and wast 1hrs driving and 30min charging total 1.5hrs just to get a free 1/2 a charge gain it kind of makes it pointless and people wont take advantage of it just because its free.

In the CBD if you can drop into the fast charger on the way home from work and top up the days consumption in 10 min without adding little to no extra km to your normal trip and only 10min of your time then there is a advantage do so if some one wants to take advantage of free charging when they could have just charged at home. There is no real inconvenience to them and they get free power. In the city's this can and does happen.

Sure a EV owner living in the the actual township of a small country town could take advantage of a fast charging station in the same way. The thing is its a numbers game there are less ev in the small towns first of all because of the distances usually traveled they are less popular (this would change with fast chargers) but in the CBD there is more likely potential for more ev owners within a few km of a fast charger just because of the population density. Using say a one in every one hundred people as a example who purchased a EV. Small town might have One owner but in the few surrounding suburbs of fast charger in the CBD could have 10 or 100 ev owners. (we could only wish in Australia)Image

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 24 Jan 2014, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by adelaide-ev » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 05:24

Quote: "Having a charger every 50 km so early in the process runs a real risk of saying "look, EVs can only go 50 km before they need a charge"

OR..... you could look at it that people might see how easy it will be to charge and they will have a choice of where they stop on their journey to charge.

Both my experiences on the same FC at Mitsubishi in the photo above have the FC bumping me off at 80% charge - after starting charging at 27 -30% SOC. At 80% SOC the amps are down to 30 from 120+ to start with.

In the photo above, Bruce started at a much higher SOC and got a bit further. I have been told if you disconnect and reconnect it will charge more (but not to 100%) but obviously at a much slower rate which you could get at home or Level 2. Haven't tried that yet - easier to come home and top off than sit in the sun at Mitsu / or 80% was enough for my needs on that occasion.

The relevance to the "electric highway " issue is that the "fast" bit only takes you to 80% in terms of distance driving (where your pack is lower SOC when you get to the FC) and we don't want to encourage people to block up the FC by using it to slow charge as well.

Also slows the journey time down as well - another negative if to go 100km you have to stop for an hour or more each charge instead of 20 mins for 80%.

I'm all for FC's being closer together for choice of route, range deterioration with battery age and just not stressing people to push their cars ( and nerves) to the limit to make the distance each time. Although there could be a lucrative tow truck business 5km short of a charger in the future!(won't help the cause).
Last edited by adelaide-ev on Fri, 24 Jan 2014, 19:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 05:58

I was unaware of the fact that Mitsubishi and Nissan are playing silly games when they quote 160 km range, when apparently it's more like 50.

Well they don't say freeway range of 160km. I'm finding my typical consumption average from the battery to be 100whr - km so I guess 160km from 16kwh battery is on the money for how I use my ev (not driving back and forth at 100kph between fast chargers) but mixed driving. Not that I would want to consume 100% of my pack regularly.

It sure isn't a 50km range just like most ICE cars have at least a 400km+ range but still gas stations are typically no more than 200km apart.

Kurt
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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 06:39

I was being a bit over the top, but I honestly thought the range of an iMiEV or a Leaf, even at highway speeds was better than 80 km - 100 km at a stretch. My thinking was that if we put them up to 100 km apart, it still provides a viable network of charging stations allowing you to travel up to 400 km in a day which would only cost a million, as opposed to saturating the region for two million and having more underutilised chargers attracting the ire of all and sundry. But I do agree some redundancy is needed as all electronic things will go on the blink at some stage. We will by all means try to get one every 50 km, but we shouldn't sh*t-can it if there's some unavoidable stretches where there's one every 100 km.

We will be taking a big gamble on this, but if we get it right it could be the start of the biggest shift in our transport networks in 100 years, and certainly a bigger transport infrastructure project that the state government could ever conjure up. There are ways of improving our chances, including pushing for more chargers, organising road trips, lots of publicity etc. So every EV owner in the state should try to use them regularly. Seeing regular users will lead to widespread to acceptance.

A few things are working in our favour though. Lots of EVs per capita and sales are growing, batteries are continuously getting better, more production EVs are entering the market, we have a beautiful region which can be traversed in a day, there are lots of touristy places and things to see and do, we've got a very enthusiastic local government sector, not to mention an enthusiastic bunch of AEVA members working on it, and an annual event which is increasingly well supported by the RAC where we can remind people that EVs are the shiz (Electrikhana).
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 07:04

Chris, sorry to be blunt but if your read the posts on this and other threads, folk are telling you the real world numbers of range and FC SOC etc. No need for you to over react with extreme statements as you learn the present state of the EV technology.

It will help with your proposal if it is based on realistic outcomes.
Your proposal will (should) be torn down to basic technical principles by funders. It will not sell on just emotion, no matter how well your heart is placed, and I know your heart is in it. However, you still need to walk into negotiations well informed and representing the EV community.

Go the EV charging highway !
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Post by g4qber » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 14:55

Reiterating a previous post, RACWA says that the range of the imiev is 80km

http://rac.com.au/news-community/enviro ... real-world

I concur with this if the a/c is on

I wonder if EVs will be driven down south in the winter where range may drop a bit.
And as mentioned by ac the heater has a greater impact on range.
One cool thing (or should I say hot thing) with the Volvo C30 PHEV is that it burns bio-ethanol for heating

http://www.gizmag.com/bio-ethanol-power ... c30/18250/


Interestingly the outlander phev has a stated range of 55km on a good day. Will be interesting to see if the Chademo model will be the standard for Australia. Noted that mitsu already are trailing the Chademo outlander at mitsu hq. somewhere I saw that mitsu may be marketing fast charging for those who can't charge at home overnight. Eg apartment condo dwellers.
http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2013/sm ... -out-34651
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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 16:01

Aircon makes bugger all difference to range but the heater in the Imiev uses 1/2 the power it takes to hold 100kph!

Remember terrain plays the biggest roll in consumption after speed. If we are saying the speed is a given at 100kmh between charges. Some stages could use significantly less energy if they are flat or have some down hill runs and others could go the other way if they have a big elevation change.It can have a huge impact each way.

Why don't you give this app a try http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/ try typing in some of the proposed stretches between fast charges and you will get some idea of the consumption. you can change the speed and because it takes elevation into account I find it to be very accurate.

Remember to change the speed in the bottom left corner its set at 80kph by default.It also assumes only one person (driver) in the car by default (this can also be changed)

Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 07:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 16:37

acmotor wrote: It will help with your proposal if it is based on realistic outcomes.
Your proposal will (should) be torn down to basic technical principles by funders. It will not sell on just emotion, no matter how well your heart is placed, and I know your heart is in it. However, you still need to walk into negotiations well informed and representing the EV community.

Go the EV charging highway !


The general consensus from the people in the room for the early planning meetings was 80-100 km per stretch at the most. So I was simply going on this as it matched the quoted ranges I was familiar with. Presumably that was because some people are happy to drive slower?

It doesn't matter in any case since we decided to aim for full coverage of the south-west; so we're going to need more of them anyway. The objective is to tie the small towns together with a common feature and give the local attractions some exposure.

It sounds like you had better come to a planning meeting some time, especially our meeting in Capel with local governments in late February.
You can even drive your i down for the week Image!

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 16:48

Kurt - that website is pretty neat! Elevation plays a big role, but even Bunbury to Bridgetown (90 km up hill) with two passengers, left the iMiEV with 20% in the tank. That was at 80 km/h, which is about as slow as you'd ever want to go on these roads. Most of that stretch is 100 km/h limited (most are 110) and if you needed it there's a great fruitbarn in Donnybrook midway for a top-up. So you'd piss it in.

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Post by adelaide-ev » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 17:12

jonescg wrote: Kurt - that website is pretty neat! Elevation plays a big role, but even Bunbury to Bridgetown (90 km up hill) with two passengers, left the iMiEV with 20% in the tank.

It is a great website, isn't it? I'm using it to calcualte typical South Aust semi rural routes and thinking of calling it the PYP program....Pacing Your Pastries!....as so far it's distances between country bakeries!!

Just remember that it assumes you start with 100% charge - so it may be a different outcome if you left Bunbury with only 80% charge.
With FC you are really operating between 20% SOC and 80% SOC....so only 60% of your maximum range.
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 17:16

I say again, if you have to drive at more than 10% below the posted speed limit then the planning is wrong and the message to the public about EVs will be wrong.
It is not a question of being happy to drive slower.

You are going for better coverage with FCs and 15A so all good.
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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 17:23

So are you going to come to a planning meeting?
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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 18:34

Yes with that app you have to play around with the speed. If it's 100kph - 100% of the way then use 100kmh. If there are stretches of slower speed then you could drop the average over the trip to less. I'm not familiar with the area as I haven't travel d to WA.

I will say when i drive on the freeway in QLD I do the speed limit 100 - 110kph like Acmotor mentioned no less than 10% slower in fact considering a lot of trucks have a 100kph restriction I feel its ok to drive at 100kph in the 110kph zone (though I don't) but driving at 90kph in the 100 kph zone is not good for all the reasons all ready mentioned. If you want to do 80 - 90 take the secondary roads.

The typical( scenic tourist Drives) up and down the the east coast between small towns in QLD see a lot of mixed driving. Typically its a mix of 80kph, some 100kph and 60kph through the towns.I guess you could call them secondary roads. So no vast stretches of 100 and 110kph are avoided . Yes you can take a freeway and you can sit on 100 - 110kph if you like. Usualy a boring drive and a disaster if there is a accident or hold up) I guess the point is you can get about quiet comfortably at a reasonable pace perhaps 10 or 20% slower than if you took the freeway. You get to go through some nice scenic roads and small towns. Just going with the flow of local traffic. Some times I am siting on 100kph where posted but the average speed over the trip is less than 100kph perhaps 80kph. I comfortably do my 104km trip with a big 500m elevation climb with 20% + SOC remaining . The return trip (no climb) I sit on 110 - 100kph and arrive with over 35% SOC. so its hard just to put a blanket number on the range.

Perhaps there isn't that option in WA and there is only one road linking the towns and its 100 - 110kph start to finish?

Kurt
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 19:07

Kurt, I think you were posting trip average speeds around mid 60s ? Mine are 87 to 93 on freeway/country on the trip meter. Yes about using minor roads though. But the idea of a charging highway is not to service minor roads, rather the more major arteries.
If you started your trip with only 80% SOC you would not consider your run viable as the point with FC 80% has been made.

Chris, you are our representative at the planning meeting. You have our feedback. We wish you well. Image
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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 20:29

acmotor wrote: ...But the idea of a charging highway is not to service minor roads, rather the more major arteries.
Well part of the thrust of our proposal (with the full support of the Tourism Commission) is to put the small towns back on the map. This means taking some of the minor roads between towns as opposed to the big three highways.

Unfortunately unlike Qld and NSW, WA's roads are magnificently engineered and you can easily sit on 170 km/h to no ill effect (not recommended Image). So most of the roads in the Southwest are actually all 100 or 110 zones. A few are 90 (Caves road, much of the Bussell Hwy and stretches through the forests of the deep south) but it's mostly smooth, fast motoring. In fact many roads through the middle section of the map look like this:

Image

So going slow isn't actually encouraged Image
acmotor wrote:Chris, you are our representative at the planning meeting. You have our feedback. We wish you well. Image


Righto. We're doing our best. Thankyou for the real-world range figures. We still want local champions, so if you're happy to be the driving force for Bindoon - Gidge - Toodyay, we want you in!
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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 20:32

The averages I was working on were a little low as I only worked out after it was time based so stopping for hot chips on the way home or taking 10 min to stop the app was having a effect on the recorded average speed listed. I would say its closer to 70 on the way up - 80 on the way home. My trip is out of the ordinary the monster hill climb and a few other hills along the way.Even my side of Brisbane is very hilly.

on Monday when I do the trip home I will reset canion logging as I enter the Freeway and just sit on 100kph and stop it when I exit the freeway its 40km length of freeway and reasonably flat I will X it by 2.5 and work out what I will burn to do 100km at 100kph.

Kurt

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Post by g4qber » Mon, 27 Jan 2014, 08:54

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/108 ... -eta-today

Even tesla model s has to slow down when superchargers are sparse
I wonder if they travelled at 80kmh in certain spots
The model s is also not as economical as a leaf or imiev at 89mpge for the 85kwh model
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 27 Jan 2014, 16:06

jonescg wrote:
Well part of the thrust of our proposal (with the full support of the Tourism Commission) is to put the small towns back on the map. This means taking some of the minor roads between towns as opposed to the big three highways.


Whilst perhaps admirable in intent, great care is needed with this thinking. The whole idea is to create charging highways not charging back roads or have I misread the thread title ? Image I hope you achieve a balance.
So an FC will put a town back on the map ? Hope you don't put that in writing !
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Post by jonescg » Mon, 27 Jan 2014, 16:15

I always admire your optimism Tuarn Image
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Post by jonescg » Sun, 02 Feb 2014, 23:49

WA Electric Highways stakeholder and planning meeting

Where?

Dalyellup Community Centre, Gosse Way, Dalyellup, south of Bunbury (Capel Shire)

When?

Wednesday the 18th of February, 10.30 am to 12.30 pm.

Who?

Anyone. Especially businesses, community groups, local governments and electric vehicle users/supporters in the regional centres of southwest of WA.

What?

To discuss the proposed roll-out of a network of DC-fast chargers and AC level 2 chargers in about 30-35 towns across the southwest. How it will happen, how it will be coordinated, and of course how it will be funded.

Why?

Cause an EV stuck in the city is like a bird in a cage - with wings, but nowhere to fly.

Please RSVP to christophergrahamjones@gmail.com for more details, and so we can arrange carpooling and some basic catering.
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Post by reecho » Mon, 09 Mar 2015, 19:07

Here's a story from the Bunbury Mail....

and I quote.....

"The City of Bunbury will pay for the ongoing maintenance and upkeep of the charging station with costs and power consumption recouped through usage charges."

Is this a thing or a bit of poetic licence from the journo??

Would be a bit unusual for some FC's to be free and some not...

Link

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Post by jonescg » Mon, 09 Mar 2015, 23:30

That's not true - the fast chargers will be free for a period of up to 3 years. After that the city will be entitled to charge whatever they see fit. Probably $5 a charge (about 25 c per kWh).
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Post by Gabz » Tue, 10 Mar 2015, 12:16

when you use up to 3 years not at least 3 years, you can't really start with that's not true... so some charging spots can start charging 1 day after install as that's still up to 3 years free...
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Post by jonescg » Tue, 10 Mar 2015, 18:35

Given the number of spelling mistakes in the article, I'd say they just reported it wrong. I don't know the details of the RAC/local government contracts, but I was of the understanding it will be free for a period of 3 years, after which the council can charge what they please.
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Post by MDK » Tue, 10 Mar 2015, 20:23

It seems the RAC has now decided to allow the local government to charge a reasonable amount for usage

The Shire of Nannup has posted their 26th of Feb Council Meeting Agenda online which states
10.
Charging rates for the electricity consumed will be managed by the
local governments and can be set at rates to fully compensate the local
government for all costs including allowances to cover upkeep and
maintenance
This differs from what they told Bridgetown 6 months ago
Under the RAC proposal, use of the recharge station will be free with the RAC describing the project as a seed network, aimed at boosting the uptake of electric vehicles and boosting the number of environmentally conscious visitors to the regions.

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