WA Electric Highways!

For West Australian Members of the AEVA
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offgridQLD
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 20 Jan 2014, 19:23

What cars are Chademo DC charge capable? Is it just the 2011 and up Imiev? Does the leaf have dc fast charging?

If its Just 20 or so Chademo capable cars in WA it really is a chicken before the egg situation. Out of that 20 cars how many will use the network and how often?

Perhaps it is just to early in the adoption phase.

When you think about how much they had to cut the price of a car like the Imiev to get them to sell and if all it would take is a few million to create a fast charging network to support a capital citys most popular weekend getaways. Then why don't the car manufactures them self install the network. I guess Tesla is doing this.

2 million spend for Mitsubishi to sell more Imievs even if they just sold 1000 of them would be $2000 per car. That better for them than having to cut the price by $25,000.

Even if Mitsubishi asked me if I wanted to join there fast charging network for when I purchased the car. Say for $1000 I would have said yes (if there was a network) They spent billions on getting the EV's out there and next to nothing on infrastructure to support them. At least in Australia.

Again why Tesla is different.

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Post by jonescg » Mon, 20 Jan 2014, 19:34

Far as I can tell it's just the Leaf and the iMiEV, but these are the two biggest selling EVs in the country. For everyone else there's AC. I gather the BMW will come with an SAE Combo connector, which is also supported by all DC chargers. Tesla will have their own kind of fast charger, but adapters are available.

Hey Ian (Zeva) if you want to help out, start by developing a ChaDeMo kit for DIY conversions Image.
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Post by Gabz » Mon, 20 Jan 2014, 19:45

there are 20 certified http://www.chademo.com/wp/chademo-ev/ CHAdeMO EVs in Australia there are 3 I-miev LEAF and Zero motorcycles. as well as tesla support CHAdeMO in the USA for another $2k adapter.

There are 0 SAE Combo in Australia and only 2 cars worldwide that support it.

Chris BMW aren't supported by veefil fast charger as early indications are looks like Australia will get type 2 SAE combo mennekes BMW i3 not type 1 SAE combo which is what the veefil has.

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Post by jonescg » Mon, 20 Jan 2014, 20:24

BMW drivers never leave town anyway... Image
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 20 Jan 2014, 22:00

There are more like 536 factory CHAdeMO equipped EVs in Oz as of Dec 2013. All leafs and iMiEVs are fitted with CHAdeMO in Oz.

SAE combo.... well thats a way to confuse the market. At least it is just another plug on the FC.
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Post by ElectricAutos » Mon, 20 Jan 2014, 22:02

Gabz wrote: there are 20 certified http://www.chademo.com/wp/chademo-ev/ CHAdeMO EVs in Australia there are 3 I-miev LEAF and Zero motorcycles. as well as tesla support CHAdeMO in the USA for another $2k adapter.

There are 0 SAE Combo in Australia and only 2 cars worldwide that support it.

Chris BMW aren't supported by veefil fast charger as early indications are looks like Australia will get type 2 SAE combo mennekes BMW i3 not type 1 SAE combo which is what the veefil has.


I have heard that BMW are shipping the I3 with a combo type 1 (J1772) connector to Australia.

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Post by acmotor » Tue, 21 Jan 2014, 00:39

Yeah that is all we need. Multiple standards for political not technical reasons. Geez, we are still trying to get some charging stations here. That will put the FC prices up.
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Post by jonescg » Tue, 21 Jan 2014, 06:34

Okay I have updated the map once more to break those scary 90 km+ legs into smaller trips. I must warn you though, Arthur River is a sh*t hole and Darkan smells like it sounds. But I'm sure you can find a socket somewhere, maybe at the golf course?
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Post by acmotor » Tue, 21 Jan 2014, 18:48

That looks more workable Chris. We'll done.

I must say though from my idea of forum protocol you should have left the original map there and just posted the new map at this point in the thread.
Add a note to the original post saying there is a new map and give a link to the new post.
If you edit the content of an original post then the conversation that followed now is disjointed and the community lose the progression of the idea.
You often get people having to quote posts in full to avoid the relevance breakdown !

But back to the FC plan, I like Image ( even if Bindoon is not there )
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Post by jonescg » Tue, 21 Jan 2014, 23:39

jonescg wrote: Okay, so we have decided to go big. Real big.

For just over $1 million we can connect the entire south-west of WA with an Electric Highway. This means placing about 25 DC fast chargers in key towns along our most popular routes. Key roads include:

Forrest Highway/Bussel Highway:
Connects Perth with Margaret River / Augusta

Southwestern Highway:
Connects Perth with Bridgetown, Northcliffe, Walpole and Denmark

Great Southern Highway:
Connects Perth with Toodyay, York, Brookton and Narrogin

The following map includes all of the towns which could have a DC fast charger, and how far away they are from the next town. There are some 105 km stretches in the mix, but there is usually a small township somewhere in between where you could plausibly put a kWh in. Alternatively, drive a bit slower to ensure you get to your next destination. Better yet, buy an EV which can do 100 km at 100 km/h Image.

Image
Updated and improved!   Again...

Each site will have a single, 50 kW DC fast charger, with provisions for more chargers should demand grow (i.e. triple conduit, bigger cement slabs etc.) and several level 2 AC chargers wired for 32 A single phase charging. The smarts in your EV charger and/or EVSE should know when to ramp up the amps. Where a transformer is required, a 100 kW transformer should be sought so that a second charger may be installed should the demand arise. Better yet, run them off grid :)

We want "Local Champions" to push the case for a charger in these towns; ideally someone who lives or pays rates in the shire. They would be the personal contact for any enquiries and focal point of enthusiasm. Since we're going to a community funding agency, this really needs to be driven from the ground level.

We also need businesses and councils to promise a cash commitment. The likes of Mitsubishi and Nissan are warming to the idea of a charging network, and their support could just get the grant over the line. Likewise, any electricians who are supportive of EVs could offer discounted installation costs. Our Local Champion would liaise with local sparkies to ensure all expenditure is kept local.

Lets make it happen!


Quoted for posterity Image
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 22 Jan 2014, 02:06

...and the original map posted on page 1 of this thread ? you quoted your edit. Sorry to hasstle you. Your EV charge proposal is great.

How about a facebook page for people to like and follow ?
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Post by jonescg » Wed, 22 Jan 2014, 02:24

We're meeting tomorrow to discuss the plan in detail. If you would like to attend, Fremantle Council buildings, 4.20 pm. Free park/charging at Queens. If you want to know more about the proposal, and why we've made the decisions we have, come along. We'll need LOTS of support from the community, not least the AEVA community.
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Post by poprock » Wed, 22 Jan 2014, 02:59

Sharks, Alumina, Forests, Wheat,? Hopefully there be Giants at your meeting tomorrow. Good luck

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Post by jonescg » Thu, 23 Jan 2014, 06:59

acmotor wrote:

How about a facebook page for people to like and follow ?


We're onto that!

After 12 years, Patti has decided to retire from the Insight Foundation, meaning the Electric Highway Project goes with her. She requested that the Perth branch of the AEVA take it on, and there was unanimous support for it. Makes sense really, but Patti is an AEVA member anyway, so if anything it's just made success a bit easier.

We're organising a road trip to Capel to meet with the council down there about the project, and we're inviting all South-West members who are keen to see the Electric Highways project through to be in attendance. We'll have a date soon, but it will be late February.

And yes, a Facebook page will be set up, complete with updates and even a snazzy logo. And you can all go in there and "Like" it, cause that matters more than anything else these days...

A display will be prepared for Electrikhana and there will be the opportunity to register your support and interest.

It's coming together, but we really need locals in each of the towns on that map, who are sympathetic to EVs and want to help. So hopefully we can spread the word soon!
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Post by jonescg » Fri, 24 Jan 2014, 16:52

From ChargedEVs magazine:

"If you can charge for free in public, why pay for charging at home? That’s great for raising EV awareness, but it becomes a problem when a driver plans on charging at a certain location, only to find it occupied by vehicles just taking advantage of free electrons. For the most part, this is pretty rare, but there is one situation in which it’s becoming a common issue: urban area DC fast charging."

http://chargedevs.com/features/dc-fast- ... ent-usage/

Another reason why I think urban DC fast chargers are not the best use of money.
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Post by evric » Fri, 24 Jan 2014, 17:21

Something to remember also, is that continual use of Fast Chargers will reduce the life of your traction pack cells. I would prefer to charge at home and have the battery last longer.
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 01:27

My understanding of the degradation from fast charging is a thermal issue coupled with the BMS's ability to keep the balance at the top of the charge. The amount of the FC in % SOC is a factor.

This of course is another reason to be keeping fast charging stations close together (50km) since instead of 0 to 80% fast charge it becomes a 6 to 8 kWh recharge so 50 to 60% up to 80% SOC and then maybe a slower charge to close to 100% SOC time permitting. Could be a little as 10 minutes.

A point for the FCs proposed.... they must be capable of slow top up to 100% as some are.
The other desirable option may be to FC for a set time that may result in a lower charge current. i.e. if the allocated time is 20 minutes, take 20 minutes not 10. May add to congestion down the track but the batteries will improve too.
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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 01:37

I suspect if the thermal health of the cells is good, it will take the charge all the way to 100%, but if they're already warm it might deliver no more than 80%.

I think having a few 7 kW capable AC charge points as well as the good old 15 A GPO is a smart move. If you arrive and it's taken, you can get a kWh or two in while you wait. Then when the FC user is done, they can swap, putting the last 15-20% in should time permit.
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Post by Gabz » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 02:45

evric wrote: Something to remember also, is that continual use of Fast Chargers will reduce the life of your traction pack cells. I would prefer to charge at home and have the battery last longer.


I think your missing the point completely! the whole idea is not charging at home and going further in a day than a single charge can take you...

And we already all know that the range on current EV is good for 90-99% of driving.

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Post by acmotor » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 03:33

Gabz, I don't think evric has missed the point. What he said is well documented and EV owners will consider battery life.
Your reminder that FC is likely to be used infrequently anyway given that 90+% may dominate.
It is one reason why you don't put FCs in big cities until you have them on highways IMHO. After all, you want EVs to charge from off leak power as much as possible.

Chris, you understand that no present battery pack is designed, in fact capable of being FCd to more than 80%. It was as if you were unaware of that when you were talking 100+ km between FCs in earlier plans.

Yes to the 15A outlets as well, as the EV community have been asking.
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Post by Gabz » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 04:11

evirc has missed the point he is comparing using a fast charger to using a home charger ? but if he can use the home charger 100% then he has no use for a fast charger has he hasn't gone more than ~60km away from home (~120km return), therefore has no use for a EV highway and is off topic.

acmotor, if the battery pack isn't capable of being FCd over 80% then explain the photos in this thread
viewtopic.php?title=fast-charging-and-m ... hev&t=3970 89% and still charging ! sure 17amps isn't fast, but that drop off is why it's always quoted 80% in 30mins. I've FC with a french made fast charger and it did stop at 80%, also programmed to stop at 30mins exactly. so I would say it has more to do with the charger than the car.
Last edited by Gabz on Fri, 24 Jan 2014, 17:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 04:29

Yes its charging past 80% but not (fast) charging past 8%. For example some fast chargers will pump 50kw into your pack until it reaches 80% then it will tapper off to say 6kw then until 90% then perhaps 3kw until 98% then ramp down to 0 kw as it balances. So your only (fast) charging until 80% then a slow top off to 100%.

Yes I can see how having a fast charger In the CBD could be taken advantage of as just free fuel for ev drivers living within a short range of it. Like there private local gass stationImage At least charging them the same amount as they would pay for the kwh's at home would deter that kind of use and still make them attractive.

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Post by Gabz » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 04:38

because only people who live near the CBD will drive EVs Image or treat them as private local gas stations. I'm not sure how there location has an effect on this expect there are more people to abuse the system. or maybe it's only city people abuse the system Image

unless you put the charger literally in the middle of nowhere then someone could take advantage.

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Post by jonescg » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 04:42

acmotor wrote:
Chris, you understand that no present battery pack is designed, in fact capable of being FCd to more than 80%. It was as if you were unaware of that when you were talking 100+ km between FCs in earlier plans.


You're stating this as fact? Cause it's not. If you have a battery which is cool, in a low SOC and capable of being charged at 2C, then it will take 2C all the way to 80% SOC or more and then taper off. Thermal management will dictate how fast, but yes, any battery can be fast-charged to 80%, and slow charged to 100%.

I was unaware of the fact that Mitsubishi and Nissan are playing silly games when they quote 160 km range, when apparently it's more like 50.

Having a charger every 50 km so early in the process runs a real risk of saying "look, EVs can only go 50 km before they need a charge".
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Post by Gabz » Sat, 25 Jan 2014, 04:56

the problem is more insufficient data for planning, you have not mean time to failure statistics, so you can't model how long or often you would expect a charger to be down for. with a network map that is at the limits of the range if a charger is down, the driver is then stuck with either requiring a tow truck or a 8 hour wait.

at a 50km interval if a over 200km trip you have 2 chargers down you can still get to your destination.

While your at it make sure any sites for install has the legal power to tow away ICE vehicles blocking the charger Image
Last edited by Gabz on Fri, 24 Jan 2014, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.

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