Changing history - well, past posts, anyway

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karlg
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Changing history - well, past posts, anyway

Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 05:09

Did you know that on this forum, you can change posts you made in the past?
That is, no matter how long ago you posted a message, you can go back and change it?

Did you know that some people actively do this?


I don't know about you, but that just seems so wrong to me, I'm shocked.

Just think about it: you are in a debate with another person, and they state something which is wrong in support of their position. You point this out and thus show that their argument is wrong. However, later on, they sneak back in to the site and correct their mistake or change their position altogether. Your response looks ends up looking stupid doesn't it.

Do you get notified of this? I think not.

Here are some of the ways that this is wrong:
1) I've read enough science fiction to know that changing things in the past has ripple effects you can't predict.

2) This shows disrespect to fellow forum members.
It is disrespectful to the people participating in that discussion at the time, and it misrepresents both your and their positions to people who read the discussion at a later date.

3) As something 'on the public record', there may be legality issues involved here. (Yes, that's probably a long chance, but it's probably better to be safe than sorry.)

4) A debate involves sides putting forward arguments and countering those of the other side(s). Attempting to win by breaking the underlying rules of debate and correcting previous messages shows a lack of morality.


The proper way to deal with a situation like that - and to be respectful to your fellow members - is to create a new message with an explanation about the erroneous information.


Changing old messages is immoral, disrespectful and just simply wrong, and the ability to modify old posts on this forum should be turned off immediately.

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Post by bladecar » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 05:48

Hi,

If you realise that someone has acted as you say, you could post a message which summarises what you said and what it was in response to. As long as that other respondent couldn't remove your message, that would work.

It's interesting that someone said to me yesterday that I had posted something and when they looked to see what it was in response to, they couldn't find it.

I was looking on someone else's computer for messages on this site to point something out and couldn't find what I was looking for either.

I wonder if it is a program fault, though what sort of fault I can't imagine.

I usually presume it's my lack of familiarity with the web site that is the problem.

So, is what you're pointing out people's actions or a technical fault? Just wondering.




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Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 15:12

How do you find out if someone has changed a post in a discussion you were involved in? I don't think this is possible.

I don't think it possible for you to summarise their post as it could be alleged that you misrepresented it, and that would stick since you would not have anything to point to as justification.

You should not be able to tamper with the forums.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 15:16

I have found that some folk change their posts as well - in some case delete the entire contents.
Easy to handle - always quote their argument in your post if you wish it to stay on record.

I have changed my posts on occasion to correct a detail but I always indicate that this has been does at the bottom of the post.

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Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 16:35

I'm sorry, that doesn't solve it since it's the same as summarising their post because you can edit what you put in their quote.

Also, you have to know that this is something that a person might do in order to defend against it. For example, if this was taken as the sanctioned response to the problem, shouldn't people - that is, everybody, be forewarned of the possibility? So, you log on to the site and receive a warning message telling you that people on this site might alter their posts without warning you.

I don't think that's a good look for either the forum or AEVA.

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Post by Johny » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 16:45

I'm no longer sure what you are trying to protect against.
The person who edits their post, or the person who edits the contents of someone else's post within the quote.
I've found this annoying in the past but never anything I would bother to suggest changing the way the forum works.

There have been occasions where folk wanted to remove their posts due to legal issues. One comes to mind where the poster was mucking about with patents or investors or something and wanted all their project details removed.

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Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 17:16

Johny wrote: I'm no longer sure what you are trying to protect against.
The person who edits their post, or the person who edits the contents of someone else's post within the quote.
Image
A person who summarises another's post can be accused of misrepresentation without reference to the original post. If A changes their post, and B either summarises or quotes the original, A could accuse B of misrepresentation and there is nothing B can do.

I really want to protect the integrity of the forum.

Johny wrote:I've found this annoying in the past but never anything I would bother to suggest changing the way the forum works.
The problem is that unless you regularly go back and look at all your old conversations, you will never know!

I don't believe this changes the way the forum works, it merely stops bad behaviour.

Johny wrote:There have been occasions where folk wanted to remove their posts due to legal issues. One comes to mind where the poster was mucking about with patents or investors or something and wanted all their project details removed.
That is a valid situation. Addressing this should be the responsibility of the forum administrator. Isn't that what happens with SPAMmers?

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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 19:04

so what if you can change it?

if you want to reply to someones post and your worried about them changing what they say

"QUOTE IT SO THE ORIGINAL POST IS IN YOUR POST"

not to mention

what i post is it my propriety?
is it your propriety?
is it the boards propriety?
is it bill gates propriety?

its my propriety and there for i should be able to edit it

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Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 19:30

Does an email you send to another person remain your property?

All posts on the AEVA forum are AEVA's property.

You have certain rights to your content, such as no re-use by AEVA without your permission etc.

(Hey, I edited my post!)
Last edited by karlg on Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 09:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bladecar » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 20:03

Karl,

What has got you so hot and bothered?

This is not Hansard.

I consider this a throw-it-out-there and get a response place.

Is anyone's opinion that important? Opinions only become important to the individual when it contributes in some way, positive or negative, to that person's points of view.

Surely the only records really worth being concerned about are those related to technical matters and experiences shared.

Opinions and points of view are to be aired and only become important when someone intends to mis-represent someone else's point of view. Do you see this happening sometime soon?

I make comments about other people's comments with the hope that they will respond to show me that I have mis-interpreted what they've said. I call that a discussion. If they don't respond, then I form an impression of the writer and leave that impression in abeyance until I can clarify my impressions further :) That's what I call 'life".

Therefore, I'm interested to know to which thread of information or opinion you refer that has made you bring up the subject (in order to understand where you're coming from, in particular :)).

I edited this to correct an incorrect word and to clarify my comments. I need to be able to edit things otherwise my comments will start to look like computer-generated-spelling-corrections or that someone else wrote this for me :)

Hey, I edited it again, in order to reduce the likelihood of offending someone :)
Last edited by bladecar on Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.

karlg
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Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 20:31

It's about the integrity of the forums. A forum thread is like a discussion between people, you know, like at and AEVA meeting or down at the pub, and it's not right for people to go around changing what they said.

Worse is that there are members don't know that this sort of thing happens. If they did, they would do things like quoting other's posts, but they don't know not to - until, one day, they discover it.

I reckon that either the option to edit posted messages needs to be turned off, or everybody needs to be told about it so they know to act defensively.

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Post by bladecar » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 20:53

Hi Karl,

If they reply to your post and quote your post in the reply, then the quoted post wouldn't change, would it. So then, the original post would always be there.

Then, where one was concerned in the way that you are, that would be an answer to the problem.

Oh, and as an Edit:

If someone quotes your original post, then you can't go back and change it (the quoted original post) either (can you?).

Last edited by bladecar on Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by karlg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 23:21

People who respond to other people's posts have to know that there are some on the forums reinventing their history - that they have to defend the integrity of the conversation and have to deliberately quote the message they are replying to. If you don't know about the problem, you can't defend against it. Solving the problem this way would require telling every member and every future member about the issue and how to defend against it.

Far better to flick a switch and stop the practice.
Why should everybody suffer?

How many other forum sites do you know of that allow this?


How about looking at the practise itself: what is the justification - what is the need?

If it's a mistake that needs to be corrected, surely the simplest way is to add a new post with the correction.

What other justification could there be?

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Post by jonescg » Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 23:25

karlg wrote:
How many other forum sites do you know of that allow this?



Pretty much all forums that I'm aware of. Some allow you to edit within an hour, and once another post follows, no further edits can be made (for things like typos etc). But most forums I use have the same edit features. I find forums are rarely used for their historical content, so the sly edit would largely go unnoticed by all but the editor themselves.
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Post by mikedufty » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 00:03

You will notice as above, that if someone edits their post, the post gets tagged with the date of the last edit, so it is not all that sly.

Edited so the edit tag will show up here too.
Last edited by mikedufty on Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 14:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 00:42

karlg wrote: Does an email you send to another person remain your property?

All posts on the AEVA forum are AEVA's property.

You have certain rights to your content, such as no re-use by AEVA without your permission etc.

(Hey, I edited my post!)

Edited by karlg - 5 hours 4 minutes ago at 1:32pm


i wonder what Weber and Coulomb will think about the fact that you (admin) have just calmed all the info they have spent most likely 100 hours posting up here on the conversion and trials of MX-5

i have asked this before and will asks it again because i didnt get a reply before

who the hell has shoved a stick up your butt and got you so angry about
things that are not broken and not detrimental to life and freedom hec there not even alarming

(OMG I AM EDITING MY POST)

Last edited by Adverse Effects on Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bladecar » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 02:18

OMG

So this is where

all the News Corp news employees went to !!!

Edited to make the exclamation marks more exclaimable.

And by the way, I doubt if it will calm Weber and Coulomb one little bit (though I shouldn't speak for them).

Last edited by bladecar on Mon, 10 Aug 2015, 16:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rhills » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 05:20

For the record, this forum does support the ability to disallow editing after a specified period of time.

I am aware that the ability to edit posts has been hotly debated by a small number of implacably opposed people from time to time.

Karl has long been strongly opposed to this facility, Weber and Coulomb I know use the facility to maintain and update the record of their conversion project and therefore argue equally strongly for its retention.

Personally, I am ambivalent, though I'd lean towards leaving the forum as it is. If editing were to be constrained I would always want to at least leave a grace period during which people could correct mistakes. To keep this in perspective, for most of us, this is a leisure activity, not life and death.

As the current webmaster, I'm the one who has the required privileges to make the change, I'd only do this if directed to do so by the AEVA Executive whom I'd expect to base any such direction on the wishes of the majority of members.

Much of this could be moot as I am still confident that we'll be moving our forum to new software in the not-to-distant future.
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Post by rhills » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 05:27

Hi bladecar,
bladecar wrote:...It's interesting that someone said to me yesterday that I had posted something and when they looked to see what it was in response to, they couldn't find it.

I was looking on someone else's computer for messages on this site to point something out and couldn't find what I was looking for either.

I wonder if it is a program fault, though what sort of fault I can't imagine.

I usually presume it's my lack of familiarity with the web site that is the problem...
From involvement with previous conversion attempts, I can confidently reassure you it is likely to be the software, not you. During such attempts, we have discovered posts that have emerged in the new (test) forum that can't be found in the existing one. I suspect subtle DB and/or index corruption has led to these posts going missing (well, hidden from view, but still in the database). Part the reason for my putting my efforts into building our own conversion process is to help resurrect information that is currently in hiding.

Note, this does not mean we will be resurrecting posts that have been deleted by their authors, that can't be done.
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Post by bladecar » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 14:02

Hi,

I support your point of view :)

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Post by karlg » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 15:16

I agree that the forums should be light and not used for historical content: they should be about people chatting.

If you have a project where you want to keep information, share it, yet be able to modify it, there are much better tools for that on the internet - e.g. Wikis. The AEVA web site has a Wiki of sorts on it at the moment that AEVA members can use.


Back to the topic:

Point: yes, if somebody edits a post, you do see that it was edited, but not what was changed.


Adverse Effects, the stick up my butt, is that a thread on the forums is a record of a conversation, and allowing people to edit their posts allows them to alter the record. This means that you can't trust anything you see here to be actually what happened.

Think about it this way: let's say I put up a post saying 'I think people should be able to edit their posts.' You then respond saying, 'I agree.' Next, I go back and edit my post so it now says, 'I think people should not be able to edit their posts.' Now, we have a conversation where you are agreeing that people should not be able to edit their posts.
And, unless you go back and have a look at the thread from time to time, you have no idea that I made the change.

Sure, people have said that you can defend this by quoting the post you are responding to. But you can edit the quote, and if the original and the quote contradict, which one can you trust? Also, why should everybody be forced to do this defensive behaviour every time they do a post because a few people edit their posts?

If you say, don't worry, it's only a light discussion, and who cares anyway, which is fair enough, go and have a look at the threads on moving the forum to other software, and you will see people arguing very strongly that every last post is really really important, and that people do care. (But you still should be able to edit them - change them at any time, so they can't be that important, can they?)


The forums on this site are public to the whole internet; you can Google it. Everything that goes up here is on the public record. Not only that, but as it is kindly run by Andrew on behalf of AEVA, everything on it reflects back on AEVA. Not only that, but it also reflects back on you - there is no anonymity on the internet.


Sure, don't change things, but if not, the people who contribute to and those who read these forums need to know that people edit their posts so they can defend themselves.

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Post by bladecar » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 16:03

Hi,

I support this point of view as well :)

It seems the subject matter that you frequent may be more contentious than usual.

If I were you, I'd use follow-up posts to outline your current point of view and include comments regarding the "changes" you perceive.

Invite the "changers" to repost restating their position.

This way, you are maintaining a record of what you think the shifting sands are and you will get a response or not, as the case may be :)

Personally, I've never noticed this behaviour, nor do I look for it.

The Editor is on lunch.

Da*n, the Editor came back early. I deleted the remainder of the last line of comment. It didn't make sense.
Last edited by bladecar on Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 06:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 12 Aug 2015, 03:10

karlg wrote: Adverse Effects, the stick up my butt, is that a thread on the forums is a record of a conversation, and allowing people to edit their posts allows them to alter the record. This means that you can't trust anything you see here to be actually what happened.

Think about it this way: let's say I put up a post saying 'I think people should be able to edit their posts.' You then respond saying, 'I agree.' Next, I go back and edit my post so it now says, 'I think people should not be able to edit their posts.' Now, we have a conversation where you are agreeing that people should not be able to edit their posts.
And, unless you go back and have a look at the thread from time to time, you have no idea that I made the change.
go ahead and edit your posy ALL YOU WANT as you can see you can change your post but all that will show is your a cheat and or a lair
so i say go ahead i want you to edit it and make it the opiset of what you originally said
just makes you (the changer) look bad and the other guy a saint   Image
Sure, people have said that you can defend this by quoting the post you are responding to. But you can edit the quote, and if the original and the quote contradict, which one can you trust? Also, why should everybody be forced to do this defensive behaviour every time they do a post because a few people edit their posts?
ok so how many life's have been lost or reputation's destroyed on this forum because some one edited there post?

none? in how many years?

need i say more?

dude chill bro
If you say, don't worry, it's only a light discussion, and who cares anyway, which is fair enough, go and have a look at the threads on moving the forum to other software, and you will see people arguing very strongly that every last post is really really important, and that people do care. (But you still should be able to edit them - change them at any time, so they can't be that important, can they?)
how high is your blood pressure mate?
you realy need to lay back and take it easy if the forum brakes THEN GET ALL FLUSTED AND JUMP TO ACTION but till then stop trying to fix things that arnt broken and have worked well for lots of years

The forums on this site are public to the whole internet; you can Google it. Everything that goes up here is on the public record. Not only that, but as it is kindly run by Andrew on behalf of AEVA, everything on it reflects back on AEVA.
i will ask it again

ok so how many life's have been lost or reputation's destroyed on this forum because some one edited there post?

none? in how many years?

need i say more?

dude chill bro

Not only that, but it also reflects back on you - there is no anonymity on the internet.
realy? you shaw about that? your only as public as you want to be or as stupid as you are

just to clarify that comment

some people want to be out there because there good people and want to help and in the process give a bit to much info about them self

on the other hand you have these fools that post every thing about there life including how big there last bowl movement was

you think i you are good enough to find me and my name out there on the net? or where i live?

that is because i have lived my life knowing the damege of identity theft can do to you as it happened to someone very close to me and they are still to this day over 15 yeas later paying for it

Sure, don't change things, but if not, the people who contribute to and those who read these forums need to know that people edit their posts so they can defend themselves.
anyone with 1/2 a brain can look and see at the bottom of each post that has been EDITED it tells you so
*sigh*

PS:- i edited this post just because i can and i may even do it again an a weeks time i hope someone quotes me so i look like a fool and a lier

W
W
|
|
|
|
V . . see it says edited
Last edited by Adverse Effects on Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by karlg » Wed, 12 Aug 2015, 15:00

I bet you don’t go back and check every thread you’ve ever posted in. How can you know others haven’t changed their posts and changed the meaning of the thread? Some of you guys have put up hundreds of posts. How can you possibly check them all?

Being able to see that a post was edited tells you nothing - it doesn’t tell you what was changed. It doesn’t help you with discovering if a thread has been changed.

Are you saying that you don’t find it creepy that people scurry around behind your back ‘fixing’ their posts? I know I do.


Hey, I have a solution. Whenever somebody points out a problem, let’s argue with him until he gives up, then we can go back to pretending that there aren’t any problems. (Hopefully, one day when the problem bites you on the bum, he won’t be around to say, ‘I told you so.’)


Please, stop people from tampering with the forums.

It’s easy to fix, just change the settings: a one-minute job.


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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 12 Aug 2015, 15:49

i say it again then i quit because your making a hart attack in a can over something that has not destroyed anyone's life
Adverse Effects wrote: how many life's have been lost or reputation's destroyed on this forum because some one edited there post?

none? in how many years?
going on the same line of what you are we should remove all cars from the world because some one may drive one a bit to fast

or remove blood from the world because some of it has AIDS and could infect someone else

remove redcross because the food they give out may save the life of someone in 5 years time may change there mind and make a virus that will kill the world off

[EDIT] O M G i just changed a letter in my post and even went back to a post i made days ago and fixed a spelling error

the world is going to end

THE SKY IS FALLING

THE SKY IS FALLING

THE SKY IS FALLING
Last edited by Adverse Effects on Wed, 12 Aug 2015, 05:51, edited 1 time in total.

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