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Post by jonescg » Sun, 04 May 2014, 17:27

Hi All,

The AEVA national council has been deliberating about moving this forum into the main AEVA website for a couple of years now. The main motivation behind this is for consistency of logins and passwords. Currently we have two online presences - this forum and the main site. Both sites call for different log ins and passwords. A secondary motivation is so that the main website can be seamlessly linked to the forum, highlighting interesting articles, events or conversions, while also allowing discussion to take place thereafter. How much interesting content winds up here when it could equally inform the punters on the main website?

The newly integrated forum would still be accessible to the casual web browser. They would be free to read and post in the forum.

There has also been open discussion about making it a "closed shop" where only financial members of the AEVA can post. This is not current AEVA policy, nor is it expected to become policy, without extensive consultation and a vote by all forum users, AEVA members or otherwise. So put your pitchforks down! Image

Having a high quality web presence is extremely important for any organisation, especially one such as ours. We don't even have a twitter account or a YouTube channel, and if we do, no-one knows where to find it. Hell, our website doesn't even contain any information about electric vehicles! There area few of us who regularly put content up on the main site, but like all volunteers we can't do everything all the time.

It goes to the heart of what AEVA hopes to achieve. Are we an old man's tyre-kicking tea party or are we a credible force for changing the way Australia moves itself? Are we an enthusiasts club or a policy-directing association? Getting our outward appearance right is critical to achieving the change we want to see, and a high quality on-line presence is a large part of it.

So, if we can preserve the content of this forum and integrate it with the main site as seamlessly as possible, why, or why not?
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Post by CometBoy » Sun, 04 May 2014, 21:47

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Post by g4qber » Sun, 04 May 2014, 21:54

Most aus leaf owners seem to use the ozleaf proboards site.

It would be good to have similar ease of use in the future aeva site
Thanks to this forum I have learnt how to use [URL=] tags

It is interesting how the posts on the oz leaf forum don't seem to be indexed by google while the aeva fora are.
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Post by Gabz » Sun, 04 May 2014, 22:05

canberra ev owners also use the mailing list more. and not the forums.

sydney uses meetup.org for everything.


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Post by acmotor » Sun, 04 May 2014, 23:22

jonescg wrote: Hi All,

The AEVA national council has been deliberating about moving this forum into the main AEVA website for a couple of years now. The main motivation behind this is for consistency of logins and passwords. Currently we have two online presences - this forum and the main site. Both sites call for different log ins and passwords. A secondary motivation is so that the main website can be seamlessly linked to the forum, highlighting interesting articles, events or conversions, while also allowing discussion to take place thereafter. How much interesting content winds up here when it could equally inform the punters on the main website?
these forums and the AEVA web site are two different environments, perhaps for good reason.
Integrating them with a common login can have merit for only some of the forum members since not all are AEVA members or even in Australia.
Many forum users use handles that are not member names. Forum opinions are not always AEVA opinions. Integration will require more moderation.
jonescg wrote: The newly integrated forum would still be accessible to the casual web browser. They would be free to read and post in the forum.
yes, so why change.... But wait if you change the platform my understanding is that all present content will be lost... I have raised that point and nobody has guaranteed present content. You have said you don't care but I do.
jonescg wrote: There has also been open discussion about making it a "closed shop" where only financial members of the AEVA can post. This is not current AEVA policy, nor is it expected to become policy, without extensive consultation and a vote by all forum users, AEVA members or otherwise. So put your pitchforks down! Image
that assurance is nice to hear but it is only from you and not from others intent on raiding the present forums. You have read the emails.
jonescg wrote: Having a high quality web presence is extremely important for any organisation, especially one such as ours. We don't even have a twitter account or a YouTube channel, and if we do, no-one knows where to find it. Hell, our website doesn't even contain any information about electric vehicles! There area few of us who regularly put content up on the main site, but like all volunteers we can't do everything all the time.d
nobody questions any of that ! We should take it as a comment. But wait, that comment is really directed at the main AEVA web site and not these forums. Current, regularly updated CONTENT is the requirement of the main AEVA web site. We are discussing the forums here.
jonescg wrote: It goes to the heart of what AEVA hopes to achieve. Are we an old man's tyre-kicking tea party or are we a credible force for changing the way Australia moves itself? Are we an enthusiasts club or a policy-directing association? Getting our outward appearance right is critical to achieving the change we want to see, and a high quality on-line presence is a large part of it.
also directed at the main AEVA web site.
jonescg wrote: So, if we can preserve the content of this forum and integrate it with the main site as seamlessly as possible, why, or why not?
ok, step 1, can you preserve content ?
Can we discuss the forum without misdirecting comments at it that should be directed at the main AEVA web site ?

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 05 May 2014, 00:40

On the point if integration....
See the AEVA logo on the top left of this page ? Press it, where does it take you ? Direct to the AEVA web site home page. Back space brings you back here.

From the AEVA web site the forums tab should take you to this forum's home page and there shouldn't be 'local forums' tab to confuse punters or an additional page/step that says 'membership required to post' then opening in a new page.
Which membership ? Perhaps the comment re single login is related to this ambiguity ? Worth correcting but then a direct link from the AEVA web site tab would be smarter still.

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Post by Gabz » Mon, 05 May 2014, 00:45

jonescg wrote:
Having a high quality web presence is extremely important for any organisation, especially one such as ours. We don't even have a twitter account or a YouTube channel, and if we do, no-one knows where to find it. Hell, our website doesn't even contain any information about electric vehicles! There area few of us who regularly put content up on the main site, but like all volunteers we can't do everything all the time.


you shouldn't try to fix one problem with a completely unrelated solution.

you main website needs more content. creditable proof read and agree on content.

integrating these forums isn't the solution.

I've written a bunch of stuff on public charging, which would qualify but it would have have someone be an editor. I had a small discussion with the last web admin about something as simiple as linking from the main AEVA site to plugshare... something about endorsement bla bla bla...

go back to your committee and tell them to create a review process for official content.

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Post by markrmarkr » Mon, 05 May 2014, 02:16

Gabz wrote:
jonescg wrote:
I had a small discussion with the last web admin about something as simiple as linking from the main AEVA site to plugshare... something about endorsement bla bla bla...


Your kidding?. No your not! Does he think this is the ABC or something?
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Post by jonescg » Mon, 05 May 2014, 03:45

Gabz wrote:

you shouldn't try to fix one problem with a completely unrelated solution.

you main website needs more content. creditable proof read and agree on content.

integrating these forums isn't the solution.

I've written a bunch of stuff on public charging, which would qualify but it would have have someone be an editor. I had a small discussion with the last web admin about something as simiple as linking from the main AEVA site to plugshare... something about endorsement bla bla bla...

go back to your committee and tell them to create a review process for official content.


They aren't unrelated. This forum sees stacks of content being added every day, several times a day. Much of it is the kind of stuff that should be on the main site as a matter of interest for the wider community, but duplicating threads is tiresome. A sort of automated system would make it easier.

Oh, and if Plugshare were corporate members of the AEVA, I can't see a problem with them being linked on the main site.
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 05 May 2014, 04:29

Please explain what you mean by duplicating threads to main web site.

The wider community already have access to the forum and posts.
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Post by jonescg » Mon, 05 May 2014, 05:05

Well, there are some great topics here in this forum which deserve to be promoted to the front page of the association's website, simply because they are relevant to EVs and the thread provides some thought-provoking discussion around the wider technological and social implications of something new. Like an open source DC fast charger, new synchronous motors, or even the lithium sulphur battery threads.

Now if these discussions were to be automatically promoted to the main page, "The AEVA" is seen to be discussing the issues. Not everybody reads forums, so a condensed summary of the topic (like the first post and a trimmed version of the latest comment) would go down pretty well. Sure, you can Google search it, but if you weren't the forum reading or joining type, you would miss it.

The alternative is that Daryl, Karl or myself try to copy-paste this interesting content and present it as articles on the main site. It would work, but it would be clumsy and the time lag would make it look a bit 'also ran'.

That's just one example of what's possible, but for me personally, the current AEVA main website is a bit like the latest generation Star Ship Enterprise, and I have only just worked out how to use the buttons in the lift Image. There is just so much potential to improve the whole online AEVA experience - it shouldn't stop at this forum.

I am not criticising this forum - it's currently the best we've got. But with out too much acrimony, it could be so much better. Looking fresh is actually a very important thing these days.

So, as for the original topic, a single site for all things AEVA online is a good move in my opinion. There's many ways it can be done, and the most basic would be to lock this site retaining all content as an archive while starting a new forum in the main site. Another option is to do a forum transplant, which might result in lost images, but these might be able to be re-sought. I'm on a motorbike forum which did this and about 90% of it transferred seamlessly. So it is possible.


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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 05 May 2014, 05:24

i know i really have no say as i am not a paid member but

a info web site no matter what you do will take LOTS of work and lots of time to edit and add new and old content and will NEVER be a "live" entity like a forum is

really any content you want on the "web site" someone will have to read, understand, and compile what is to be moved / copied / editorialized

there is no magic program that can tell what is good info and what is bad info

a web site is only as good as the constant work that go's in to it

forums on the other hand are "full of it"

the good
the bad
the different
the ingenious
the stupid
the wrong
then you have the mass link posters (you know who you are *wink*)

this all takes very little work to look after because the older members will jump on something that should not happen and the stuff that isnt really bad but just annoying will be corrected by the members in due time most likely in a private message

so from what i have seen and been apart of in other places (forum admin 2 boards, owner 1 board, editor 1 board, owner 1 board over the last 10 years) there is no point in "linking / joining" a forum to a website

and if you do try to make some program post stuff from the forum you will have 10 times the work to fix it and clean it up not to mention people getting mad about incorrect / bad info on a web site

but what do i know just ignore me

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 05 May 2014, 06:52

I'm thinking that a taken out of context post or extract of one is a pretty daft thing to put on the main web site.
Surely someone has to read it and the thread it came from ? What about right of reply ?
After all, you may make a post, it goes on the front page to be taken as gospel and as the AEVA opinion yet the posts that follow and correct your misguided comment are not considered unless someone actually reads the thread. Image
Ok, so another slant. Only posts from AEVA financial members will be posted. Perhaps censorship is part of the grand plan ?

I agree with mining the forums for information. This has be raised many times over the years. It is unlikely to be an automated process though. It involves reading. Did I hear you volunteer ?

Adverse effects your opinion is as good as any.
Tell us, what would it take for you to become a financial member of the AEVA ? Closing the forum door on you if you don't ? Giving you a free model S ?

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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 05 May 2014, 15:19

hmm i just spent over an hour typing up a reply and when i hit post it popped up a screen telling me i didn't have permission to post here (glitch in the software? have gotten them a lot from here.) and i am not going to type it all out again


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Post by jonescg » Mon, 05 May 2014, 16:08

Hell for a free Model S I'll quit and re-join!
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Post by acmotor » Mon, 05 May 2014, 16:22

Adverse Effects wrote: hmm i just spent over an hour typing up a reply and when i hit post it popped up a screen telling me i didn't have permission to post here (glitch in the software? have gotten them a lot from here.) and i am not going to type it all out again


An omen maybe ?
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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 05 May 2014, 21:17

cliff-note version

web site = selling something or portal to point to where the real info is (forum)

as for being a financial member and closing the door to non payers go ahead you will lose a lot of members and with that a chunk of the combined wisdom and knowledge

would you buy something for $1 when you can go next door and get it for free?

2 power points on the wall 1 has $10 a charge the other free

what one are you going to plug in to?

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Post by Adverse Effects » Mon, 05 May 2014, 21:20

PS:- an S hmm ok bring it over i think i can get anough $ for it to build something i would really like LOL

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Post by suziauto » Wed, 21 May 2014, 02:02

I don't think the forum will be for financial members only ever. I feel theres been unrealistic predictions that are clouding this issue.

Personally I think this is the AEVA forum , Its marked as AEVA , see the AEVA logo on it?, funding has come from AEVA and therefore paid from AEVA financial memberships , it has content from financial AEVA members , People interested in contributing to an AEVA forum and believing it is the AEVA forum .. which it is.. its AEVA property..

The AEVA national council , voted in by AEVA financial members have a webmaster also voted in by AEVA financial members.

Why isn't the forum under the control of the Elected Webmaster and the national committee? Why is it somehow better NOT being run by the the AEVA? this seems quite bizzare to me...nothing will change except where its hosted and who looks after it.

This forum and all data / posts etc belongs to the AEVA financial members and we voted our state admins and national admins to do a job, administer the AEVA , including its website and forum.

If people respect the process of the Association , then it should respect the decisions of the AEVA National council and that this forum should be handed to the AEVA to administer.

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Post by weber » Wed, 21 May 2014, 21:53

It seems to me there are two separate issues here that have gotten somewhat tangled. Correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Andrew Brown is Tuarn <last name deleted>'s (acmotor's) son. Tuarn <last name deleted> is a past president of AEVA but he is not president now. Andrew Brown is a past webmaster but he is not webmaster now. He has not been webmaster for over a year and is not even a member of AEVA. Despite the fact that Karl Goiser has been our elected webmaster and forum admin for over a year, Andrew refuses to relinquish control of the forum and hand over full control to Karl. That can't be correct, can it? Image

There is the secondary problem of the physical location of the server, which I understand is in Andrew's residence, but the forum could be transferred to a server at another location via the internet or via a stack of DVDs, USB sticks or an external hard drive which I'm sure the AEVA would be happy to pay for. It might have to be shut down for a few days, but that has happened by accident in the past and we somehow coped.

2. The software currently used by the forum does not allow automatic matching of AEVA memberships with forum avatars, for those who are members, so it is impossible to offer member-only services as an enticement to join the AEVA (for a mere $40pa) and thereby help pay for the expenses of running the public forum (for which Andrew charged $1000 a year when he was webmaster, but kindly doesn't charge at the moment) and other expenses, such as helping people transport vehicles of special interest interstate for annual AEVA festivals Image.

These two otherwise unrelated problems seem to have become entangled in a vicious cycle because Tuarn didn't want the forum handed over to Karl due to fears that the wealth of information already collected in this forum might be lost or that it might be completely closed from the public, and Karl was previously somewhat cavalier in claiming that it might be OK to lose it, possibly because it wasn't being handed over to him anyway.

Recently Karl sought my opinion (among others) on the question of losing the existing forum, except perhaps for the important parts which might be transferred to a sort of AEVApedia wiki.

I told him in no uncertain terms that losing _any_ of the information in the existing forum was completely out of the question, and that while a wiki-pedia was a good idea, no one had the time to extract the "important bits" from the existing forum, and anyway there was no way to tell in advance what bits would be important. Something I look up this week, I might have told you last week you could throw out because no one would ever need it.

I said I'd prefer the existing forum posts remained editable by their posters so errors could be corrected and broken links and images fixed, but an absolute minimum would be to have it frozen but searchable with at least the features of the existing advanced search.

Karl told me that everyone else he'd asked had said much the same thing but he thanked me for explaining _why_. So Karl is convinced, and there is now no danger of losing the existing forum material. I may have this wrong but I understood from Karl that it might even be possible to pay for the content of the existing forum to be transferred to the new forum software in a completely _live_ state. To me that would be ideal, and I'd be happy to contribute some money towards that.

So now, can we please arrange for the orderly transfer of the existing forums to their rightful webmaster?

[Edit: Changed Tuarn's last name to "<last name deleted>" Image ]
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Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 22 May 2014, 00:08

transferring "ALL" data from 1 software package to another is not a simple job i know this because i have been involved twice in the process

the first time went ok sort of but only about 80% of the data moved across with out errors and ALL of that data was unlinked to anyone that posted it

the second time was a total clusterfuk and no matter what we tried we couldn't get any of it to work so we had to resurrect the old server and keep it live online till it was no longer needed (8 months)

there are some company's that specialize in this type of thing but i don't think you want to pay the $10'000.oo's it would cost to have it done if you can even find one that is knowledgeable on both software packages

and even then if you do get it all done what will happen in a years time 2 years time 3 years time and so on when it gets handed over to the next lot of "elected" and they want to move it (dont say it wont happen its happening now)

i know it sounds like i am fighting for the forum not to be moved but on the contrary moving it all on to the 1 server is a good idea but only as long as it is done correctly and with out the loss of data and what a lot of people treasure more than there posts "there post count"

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Post by Andrew » Thu, 22 May 2014, 02:31

weber wrote: It seems to me there are two separate issues here that have gotten somewhat tangled. Correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Andrew Brown is Tuarn Brown's (acmotor's) son. Tuarn Brown is a past president of AEVA but he is not president now. Andrew Brown is a past webmaster but he is not webmaster now. He has not been webmaster for over a year and is not even a member of AEVA. Despite the fact that Karl Goiser has been our elected webmaster and forum admin for over a year, Andrew refuses to relinquish control of the forum and hand over full control to Karl. That can't be correct, can it? Image

There is the secondary problem of the physical location of the server, which I understand is in Andrew's residence, but the forum could be transferred to a server at another location via the internet or via a stack of DVDs, USB sticks or an external hard drive which I'm sure the AEVA would be happy to pay for. It might have to be shut down for a few days, but that has happened by accident in the past and we somehow coped.

2. The software currently used by the forum does not allow automatic matching of AEVA memberships with forum avatars, for those who are members, so it is impossible to offer member-only services as an enticement to join the AEVA (for a mere $40pa) and thereby help pay for the expenses of running the public forum (for which Andrew charged $1000 a year when he was webmaster, but kindly doesn't charge at the moment) and other expenses, such as helping people transport vehicles of special interest interstate for annual AEVA festivals Image.

These two otherwise unrelated problems seem to have become entangled in a vicious cycle because Tuarn didn't want the forum handed over to Karl due to fears that the wealth of information already collected in this forum might be lost or that it might be completely closed from the public, and Karl was previously somewhat cavalier in claiming that it might be OK to lose it, possibly because it wasn't being handed over to him anyway.

Recently Karl sought my opinion (among others) on the question of losing the existing forum, except perhaps for the important parts which might be transferred to a sort of AEVApedia wiki.

I told him in no uncertain terms that losing _any_ of the information in the existing forum was completely out of the question, and that while a wiki-pedia was a good idea, no one had the time to extract the "important bits" from the existing forum, and anyway there was no way to tell in advance what bits would be important. Something I look up this week, I might have told you last week you could throw out because no one would ever need it.

I said I'd prefer the existing forum posts remained editable by their posters so errors could be corrected and broken links and images fixed, but an absolute minimum would be to have it frozen but searchable with at least the features of the existing advanced search.

Karl told me that everyone else he'd asked had said much the same thing but he thanked me for explaining _why_. So Karl is convinced, and there is now no danger of losing the existing forum material. I may have this wrong but I understood from Karl that it might even be possible to pay for the content of the existing forum to be transferred to the new forum software in a completely _live_ state. To me that would be ideal, and I'd be happy to contribute some money towards that.

So now, can we please arrange for the orderly transfer of the existing forums to their rightful webmaster?


Thanks Weber. I hope you're glad you got that out.

The ONLY reason, as far as I'm concerned, that the forums haven't gone to their "rightful owner" is the issue of transferring the database to a completely new system. We've looked into this many years ago and it appeared to be too costly and risky.

In the meantime, I have been volunteering my hosting services to keep these forums alive, despite all the political nonsense that seems to occur within AEVA. I also continue to update the forum software version and clean up spammers.

Karl has full admin control of these forums.

AEVA seems to be too commercial focused and a concern of mine, which doesn't affect the "ownership" transfer of the forums, is that closing down the forums to financial members only will have a devastating effect on AEVA's online presence and future membership.

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Post by weber » Thu, 22 May 2014, 04:47

Thanks Andrew.

I'd like to hear from Karl in this thread, to clarify that the forum (in general) will _not_ be made members only, and the existing threads _will_ remain accessible and searchable.
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Post by acmotor » Thu, 22 May 2014, 05:47

It is not up to the webmaster to open or close the forums to AEVA members without a directive from the AEVA national council, surely also after consultation with all AEVA and forum membership, although preference for a closed forum has been expressed by some folk in the past.

Weber, your second question is the real sticking point.

Perhaps the AEVA could exercise responsibility in ownership and taking an informed vote.....

1. Transfer this forum intact and alive to the present webmaster's server running the present forum software.
Although I understand this has not been offered for technical reasons ? And there is a desire by some for a new forum software anyway.

2. Transfer this forum data, i.e. All posts, images, threads with chronological integrity, user logins, search function, edit function to new forum software on the present webmaster's server.
Clearly this can't be voted on unless it can be demonstrated not just promised and then reneged on after the vote.
I think some folk are under the misapprehension that this transfer process is going to be simple and then confuse the delay in transfer of the forums with the technical issues.

I understand that the forum integrity of these first two options is important to many AEVA members and also to public forum members in Oz and around the world.

3. Archive this forum....duh.. Read... bin it. Without active user search and edit function this is pointless.

4. Bin this forum and start again with new software on the current webmaster's server.
This is the most irresponsible option to 7 years of forum history and 48,000 posts ?

5. Leave this fully functional, open to the public, owned and administered by AEVA forum as is where is.
iMiEV MY12     99,820km in pure Electric and loving it !

rhills
Site Admin
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 01:57
Real Name: Rob Hills
Location: Waikiki, WA

Forum integration with the main site

Post by rhills » Thu, 22 May 2014, 09:14

I might be in a position to help with the conversion in the near future. I've been a "lurking" member for several years, very low profile over the past 2 years because of other calls on my time. What I can offer is nearly 25 years of experience with databases as well as numerous data conversions (medical data so quite complex), software development (database and web systems) html experience, etc. I'm quite comfortable with volunteering my skills for organisations like the AEVA.
Cheers,
Rob Hills
AEVA Webmaster
2014 Mitsubishi Outlander Aspire PHEV
Jul 2014 - Nov 2017
Total Petrol: 521.1L
ODO: 37347
Av Consumption: 1.40 L/100km

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