Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

Hi all

Just joined,
Hoping to find some insights into the pro's, con's and work a rounds
of converting my EFI 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4.

My Main concerns at the moment are,

A) How water resistant are EV motors? is there a dual shaft EV motor that can withstand being submerged in a river crossing?

B) What do i do with the factory ICE engine management sensors, E.G Mass air flow, Exhaust emission, Engine knock sensor and so on?

C) Are the factory electrics going to be running off the EV battery packs? E.G Heater fan, Head/Tail lights, Turn signals and so on,
or can i run them from the factory Alternator and battery setup by mounting the alternator on a mounting plate
at the front of a dual shaft EV motor as i have seen done with the power steering, power brake vacuum and Aircon pumps?

In regards to the factory alternator,
i know it will create extra drag on the EV motor, i have looked up my ICE engine specs
and its 215 Nm torque and 150 Hp,
so if i go with a 220 to 250 Nm EV motor i should be able to run the factory alternator,
power steering and Aircon pump with out losing to much torque,
and save some $$$ by not having to buy the power steering pump conversion,
I will however have to set an idle speed on the EV motor so that the power steering pump
will be working when i am trying to park at the local shops and so forth ( its a full power setup from factory).

Why do i wont to run the factory electrics off the factory battery and Alternator i hear you ask?
to save power in the EV motors battery packs, especial when i have to run the headlights at night,
Also i can add a second auxiliary battery for a recovery winch.

NO, i am Not trying to setup a perpetual motion system lol, to quote rocky and bullwinkle " that trick never works",
just trying to save power in the EV battery packs.

I have plenty of experience in the mechanical area, all be it mostly restoring older pre EFI vehicles,
I am also a metal fabricator by profession,
so fabricating mounts and water tight vented marine grade aluminium boxes for the battery packs and controllers wont be an issue.

By Vented boxes i mean i will be re-purposing the factory ICE air intake system,
and using it as a fan forced air intake system for the battery packs and controller boxes and adding a snorkel kit,
the exhaust from the boxes will be fan forced out above water lever, maybe into a second snorkel on the passenger side of the vehicle,
the fans for this system will run off the factory 12V battery.

I will be using the Factory Clutch and transmission system, as i will need these when i go off road,
I will be removing the Starter gear from the fly wheel,
and have 5mm to 10 mm machined off the engine side of the fly wheel to the make it lighter,
How much i have machined off the fly wheel will depend on how thick it is,
if i take to much off it may have warping and cracking issues when it gets hot off road,
also i don't wont it to light as i will lose motor rpm when changing gears off road on hill climbs.

Vehicle Details:
Year: 2000
Make: Toyota
Model: Hilux
Series: RZN169
Engine: 2.7Ltr 3RZ-FE EFi inline 4 cylinder
Fuel Type: unleaded petrol
Transmission: 5 speed manual
Drive Train: 4x4

There are most likely some details i have left out, how ever that's all i can think of at the moment.

Regards
DC
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by rhills »

Hi Damien, welcome to the forums.

Keep in mind that when your electric motor is spinning your alternator, the power from your alternator is still coming from your traction batteries, just via an inefficient route (batteries -> controller -> electric motor -> alternator, with losses at each transfer point). Most EVs have a separate 12V battery for "house" electrics and charge that with DC-DC charger powered by the traction pack.

Usually the non-traction vehicle electrics power consumption is only a tiny fraction of the traction power consumption.

With respect to airconditioning, power steering etc, various options are available, most of which have been discussed in great detail elsewhere in this forum. Some modern ICE vehicles use electrically assisted power steering which doesn't need a pump, so that may be an option for your conversion. FYI, one of the features of an EV is that the motor doesn't spin at idle, so things that rely on a spinning internal combustion engine generally need rethinking.

I'm sure others with much more practical knowledge than I have will pipe in with comments and suggestions, but doing an EV conversion is rarely just a case of dropping out the ICE and dropping an electric motor in its place.

Cheers,
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by reecho »

Trev's converted Hilux may give you some pointers...

http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewTopic.php?TID=384
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

Hi Rob, Reecho

Thank you for your Response, appreciated.

Since we have all been house bound due to COVID19, it has given me the time to research EV conversions,
For the last two weeks i have read numerous forums on EV conversions,
So yes there is more to it than just replacing the factory ICE system with an EV system,
hence the reason i am here, to find out more.

Please bare in mind that every thing is still in the concept/research and theory stage at the moments.

Four Rules to live by when considering doing an EV conversion.
(these also apply to anything in life)


1) if you fail to plan you plan to fail

2) Six P Rule: Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

3) Seven P Rule: Piss Poor Planning Produces Piss Poor Products

4) KISS Principal: Keep It Simple Stupid
(translation: the more complicated you plan/design ANYTHING, the more complicated it is to implement/service or repair)

As for the power brake Vacuum and power steering pumps:

I could run those off a 12V Permanent Magnet Motor (PMM), with a PMM speed controller to dial the speed down
to where it can run both pumps, and leave me with sufficient pump pressure/vacuum to do the job,
And run the PMM speed controller off the factory battery and alternator,
Then i only need to run the alternator off the EV motor to keep the factory battery charged,
This would remove the need to idle the EV motor for the Power Steering and Power brake Vacuum Pumps when parking,
As well as save drag on the EV motor,
The AC pump may require its own PMM and speed controller due to the torque needed to turn it at a usable speed.

Rob
You mentioned:
"Most EVs have a separate 12V battery for "house" electrics and charge that with DC-DC charger powered by the traction pack."

Are these what you where referring to ?
https://www.evworks.com.au/start-saver-battery

Reecho
Yes i have read that article it is very helpful, thank you for reminding me of it (book marked it).

Link for a place to buy 12V Permanent Magnet Motors (PMM) and speed controllers in Australia:
https://www.motiondynamics.com.au/
These motors are used in robotics, as well as on electric scooters and conveyor systems, so they are not to bad in the power output department,
You just have to choose the right one for the job, plus they are rather cheap so if it go's BANG its no biggy to replace
They also have very good delivery times.

My Main concern at the moment is, since i am converting a 4x4,
is there an AC EV motor out there that can survive being submerged in a river crossing and not short out?
other wise i do not see the point in converting a 4x4 if you can not use it as a serious 4x4.

These are the two EV motors i am considering at the moment:
https://www.hpevs.com/ac--b-face-electr ... -26-26.htm

https://www.hpevs.com/ac--c-face-electr ... -28.26.htm

Both have an auxiliary shaft at the front of the motor that i can use for running the Alternator off,
Both have vented end plates for cooling,
if i fabricate a couple of vented Mounting plates with a shaft seal on them (same as an oil main seal does on an ICE crank shaft)
to seal the ends of the EV motor, i can then add an air cooling system for both ends of the motor.

I am yet to Email the manufacturer, and ping them on the idea of whether or not these motors can be sealed up to make then water tight.

These are all the EV motors in the AC 50/51 ranged that they manufacture:
https://www.hpevs.com/hpevs-ac-electric ... hicles.htm

Two of them mention that the casing is NOT water proof,
So hopefully that means that the two that i am looking at do have water proof casings,
as mentioned i am yet to ping them on the idea of whether or not these motors can be sealed up to make then water tight.

Sorry for the long winded posts, as they say the devil is in the details,
if you don't plan your EV build correctly, it could turn out to be a seriously evil bugger to correct the errors you made.

Regards
DC
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by jonescg »

And waterproofing. Stop un-wanted water from getting in. And stop wanted water from getting out.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

Hi Jonescg

The HPEVS AC 50/51 series motors i am looking at are air cooled, So NO water period,
A totally sealed dry system with a fan forced air cooling system that is also water tight.

sorry i should have made that clearer.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by jonescg »

Oh that's all good - just things like electrical contacts, battery terminals, motor and inverter supply cables and control wiring - all that stuff is at risk if it gets wet.

Or entire battery packs... :/
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

such as the contact posts on the motor its self, will have to be sealed up in such a way as to not make them a fire hazard or over heat.

I am a metal fabricator by profession (35 years), I also have a back ground in computer hardware, as well as mechanical repairs and restoration,
so sorting out water proofing will be a bit of a brain strain, how ever it can be done I'm sure.

I was thinking of making water tight vented boxes, using 3mm marine aluminium plate for all the batteries and controllers,
with liquid cooled computer CPU heat sinks (sealed units) or something similar, under the controllers and batteries,
while ensuring i have adequate air flow under and around the controllers/batteries and heat sinks to keep them all cool,
then repurpose the ICE air intake system for all the air cooling intake, with fan forced air intake and exhaust using 12v 0.5 >1.5 amp PC fans
(or something similar), also in water tight casings,
just add a snorkel on the drivers side for intake and a second snorkel on the passenger side for exhaust,
just rotate the top of the passenger side snorkel so its facing backwards, thus keeping all the air intake and exhaust system above water when crossing rivers,
or deep mud holes.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

Just to clarify the HPEVS AC 50/51 EV motors DO NOT come with the air intake and exhaust system, they only have vented end plates,
I will have to design my Front and Transmission mounting plates with that in mind to make that a reality.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by 4Springs »

D-Collins wrote: Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 14:50 Rob
You mentioned:
"Most EVs have a separate 12V battery for "house" electrics and charge that with DC-DC charger powered by the traction pack."

Are these what you where referring to ?
https://www.evworks.com.au/start-saver-battery
No, Rob's talking about something like this: https://www.evworks.com.au/mean-well-po ... -converter
It takes your traction pack voltage and converts it to 12VDC (or 13.8VDC) to charge your 12V battery and run your 12V system. You must have a 12V system, you can't run your lights and fans directly from the high voltage traction pack.
An alternator will be a pain to mount and will take up much more space.
DC/DC converters can be waterproof (the one linked is IP65, which ain't bad).
DC/DC converters can run at all times. For instance, my EV needs to hold a contactor in while charging. So there is a constant 12V drain when the motor is not running.
If you need more 12V current, add another DC/DC converter. You'll be able to get enough current to drive your winch without having to put in an auxiliary battery (although it would be even better if you could get a winch that runs at your traction pack voltage).
The DC/DC converter will be much more efficient than an alternator, so you won't need to up the power of your traction motor.

Think about the 12V battery charging schedule with an alternator:
When the car is idle, the battery is either idle, or is slowly discharging. The 12V battery needs to be big enough to last this time.
When the car moves, the alternator needs to charge the battery plus power the 12V system.

Now think about a DC/DC converter:
When the car is idle, the battery is charged from the DC/DC converter.
When the car moves, the DC/DC converter needs to power the 12V system. The battery is already charged.
So the battery is not normally discharged at all. This means it can be quite small. Many people get away with a lawnmower battery in their conversions. The extra space created is soon taken up with something else!

In the alternator scenario, all the power for the 12V system is created only when the traction motor is running. So it will take away from what power you put to the road. With the DC/DC converter scenario, the power load is spread out over times when the car is idle, as well as when running.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by pirpy »

I think the dc/dc is a cheaper option too, you need to fabricate a mount and belt for alternator + bigger traction motor and battery
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by brendon_m »

Not to mention the whole KISS thing. A DCDC generates 12V with a single efficient solid state device that can be put basically anywhere.
Alternators are inefficient, have moving parts, have wearing parts, need to mounted in exact locations, need other components to make them work, are more expensive and are definitely not waterproof.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by brendon_m »

Also the tried and proven method of creating a vacuum for the brakes is a simple 12V vacuum pump.
once again, certainly more simple and versatile than using a belt driven pump.
My recommendation for the Aircon would be a HV compressor, although I have the standard factory Aircon compressor just being belt driven off the front of the electric drive motor on mine and it works fine, it generally stays cold long enough at traffic lights to not be an issue when then motor is turning (one benefit to the belt driven is the aircon is its super cold because the compressor is turning faster on average to what it used to be). That being said I want to change to a HV compressor because I think they look neater and I keep having trouble with the belt being spat off the pulleys, but that is more of an initial design fault.
So the last major item on the list to drive is the power steering, here I agree with @francisco.shi and say go for a powered column if you can make one work, it's the simplest, most efficient way. Otherwise an electric power steering hydraulic pump out of a car that came out with one (off the top of my head I can think of minis and astras) to replace your belt pump but some of these are very noisy and inefficient.
If you want to get a motor to drive your original pump you can, it's basically all that is inside an Astras' pump but you need to be aware that just limping along at idle without steering it will burn through a lot of power and if you want to save energy by winding the pump up and down when it's needed you are probably going to run into strife getting the pressure up fast enough.
Have a look at what hotrodders do in this position as they have been doing it for years and there is a lot more of them out there compared to EV converters.

With all this you can ditch the dual shaft motor which will open up your options in motor selection.

In terms of water crossings with an electric motor, there is no reason you can as long as you select the right motor. Obviously a DC motors will be mostly unsuitable but most AC motors are pretty waterproof just in their nature. Remember a petrol motor has high voltage running on it (think ignition coils, leads etc) and they manage to do river crossings. Granted, if you sink one you can have trouble but if you keep moving and don't go too deep you are going to be fine.

Oh and all the factory efi sensors? Remove / Sell them but only after you are sure they don't do double duty for something else (but I can't think of any that would be needed, possibly an rpm input to the Aircon module, but im pretty sure a 2000 hilux just has an alternator input for that which is easy to spoof/bypass)
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

WOW!
I defiantly came to the right place for info, thanks guys huge help, a lot to think about.

Was just thinking, since my power steering is via the steering box, and not a hydraulic ram on the drag link,
maybe see if I can find a NON power steering box from an earlier model that will fit, and eliminate the need for a power steering pump altogether,
one less thing drawing power away from the battery packs, then its just the power brake vacuum pump, aircon, DC to DC converter,
and cabin heater 12V water heater unit.

I have a 720 CCA Acid battery already in the car, and that can power my car fridge/freezer all night and still leave enough power to start the ICE in the morning,
have been looking at Automotive deep cycle batteries as well, to replace the factory 12V system battery.
found these https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/products/deep-cycle

The Dual force range are apparently capable of being used as a starter battery, as well as standard deep cycle,
The https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/re ... 20mf/info also weights less than my current 720 CCA acid battery and its AGM,
so it will deal with being rocked and bounced around off road much battery than the acid battery.

As always with EV conversions the biggest expense will be the Traction motor battery packs,
On average I do about 150 to 160 Klm's a day for work, so i am going to require enough batteries to give me at least a 300 to 350 Klm's range,
where to mount them is not an issue, one pack under bonnet, two packs under tray, one behind the cab where the fuel tank was,
like is Trev's conversion http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewTopic.php?TID=384, another where the spare wheel usually mounts,
if i use the right batteries i should hopefully get a half decent range out of them as well as enough power for off road use.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by 4Springs »

D-Collins wrote: Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 12:29 As always with EV conversions the biggest expense will be the Traction motor battery packs,
On average I do about 150 to 160 Klm's a day for work, so i am going to require enough batteries to give me at least a 300 to 350 Klm's range,
As you say, the biggest expense.
Off the top of my head, 350 km range in this size/weight vehicle would need about 80 - 100 kWh of battery. Depending on the cells you choose, this could be 400 - 1000 kg, and perhaps $40k.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by T1 Terry »

Just to clear up something, AGM, flooded cell, Gel cell, calcium/calcium and lead crystal, are all lead acid batteries and all fall apart internally is subject to excess vibrate.
All my lead acid batteries are being gradually replaced by aged LFP cells built into a 4 cell battery. Heaps more CCA and capacity than a lead acid battery, 1/3rd the weight and if engine temp under the bonnet is no longer happening because there is an electric motor there now, will out last the traction pack battery in most cases.
Both of my Priuses have had the old lead acid battery sent to the scrape metal dealer and replaced with what I would have considered exhausted LFP cells from damaged house battery packs and both are way superior to the original battery. These vehicle are notoriously hard on their 12v batteries and the replacement costs a fortune, the "past their use by date" lithium cells cost next to nothing and work brilliantly.

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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by 4Springs »

D-Collins wrote: Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 12:29 I have a 720 CCA Acid battery already in the car, and that can power my car fridge/freezer all night and still leave enough power to start the ICE in the morning,
have been looking at Automotive deep cycle batteries as well, to replace the factory 12V system battery.
found these https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/products/deep-cycle

The Dual force range are apparently capable of being used as a starter battery, as well as standard deep cycle,
The https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/re ... 20mf/info also weights less than my current 720 CCA acid battery and its AGM,
so it will deal with being rocked and bounced around off road much battery than the acid battery.
If you use a DC/DC converter, then you won't need these lead-acid batteries, since you''ll use your lithium traction battery instead. Your lithium traction battery will be smaller, lighter, will last much much much longer (will power your fridge/freezer for many weeks), and will probably be cheaper. Why cheaper? Because you'll be buying a big lithium traction battery, and you get economies of scale with that.

No matter what 12V applications you are thinking of, these will be a tiny fraction of your traction pack capacity. So small that you won't notice it. As an example, with my 20 kWh traction battery, if I left my headlights on high beam, they would run for 5 days before they flattened the traction pack.
So saving on the 12V stuff really isn't required - you'll have plenty.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by T1 Terry »

From bad experiences, I'd recommend leaving a 12v battery in the circuit after the DC to DC converter. The DC to DC has a limited output and generally, exceeding this output or even running close to the maximum output for extended periods results in the DC to DC converter failing. The battery in parallel handles the sudden loads so the DC to DC output voltage is not pulled lower than its limit but can average out the 12v load by recharging the 12v battery at a controlled rate and so reducing the long term high load and shock loads from damaging the DC to DC converter.

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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

I will be running a recovery winch, which is my main reason for keeping my factory 12V battery system,
maybe just replace the acid battery with the Century Dual force Deep cycle battery i mentioned.

Currently looking into PMA's (permanent magnet alternators), had a look at these a year or so ago,
There are 12V 60Amp PMA's that are single wire, self exciting (just need a regulator), that can be used not only for wind turbines,
they also have automotive application as well (Hot Rods), a company called "WindBlue Power" makes them.

Basically they take a Delco automotive alternator, and convert it to a PMA,
since they don't require an electro magnetic field to generate power they require very little to get then turning,
They work a bit like and old grey motor generator, from memory they require very little torque to get them spinning, about 0.59Nm,
and low RPM, 200 RPM to start generating power, My book mark is out of date so cant find the sales web site,
how ever i just found their forums site, and have requested an updated link to their sales site,
so I'll get back to you on the PMA's once i have some info on torque, RPM and power output specs.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by francisco.shi »

You need a liquid cooled motor if you want to do water crossings. The liquid cooled motor can be sealed completely. It could virtually run completely submerged continuously. Your battery pack will have to be water tight as well as all your electronics.
For power steering use an electric power steering rack. They are much more effecient. They only draw power when they need to push.
I am doing a Pajero my self. It will need to be water tight as well. You can see the thread under members machines. It may give you some ideas.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by Scotty T »

If you're spending a lot on a motor and battery pack (we all have to, you're looking at $30-40k easily in batteries for the range) it makes no sense to keep any of the mechanical stuff. My plan is to keep the really nice power steering (BMW E30) hydraulic with an off the shelf pump, remove the heating and old air con to replace with a reverse cycle unit, and DC-DC converter with a small 12v lithium accessory pack.

It will cost more but be much better, the whole idea of EV conversion for me is to rid the car of all that old stuff wherever possible.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by francisco.shi »

After seeing how the electric power steering racks work I think a hydraulic one could not be made better than a well setup electric.
The hydraulic has to have a valve that has to have a small amount of play so the valve can change flow to the piston.
The electric has strain gauges on the shaft which means zero play. The assistance can be made to be anything you like.
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Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by D-Collins »

francisco.shi wrote: Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 15:02 You need a liquid cooled motor if you want to do water crossings. The liquid cooled motor can be sealed completely. It could virtually run completely submerged continuously. Your battery pack will have to be water tight as well as all your electronics.
For power steering use an electric power steering rack. They are much more effecient. They only draw power when they need to push.
I am doing a Pajero my self. It will need to be water tight as well. You can see the thread under members machines. It may give you some ideas.
I have been looking into that and found this:
https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/uqm-dr ... clone.html
Data Sheet:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/images/ ... 0791147819

Here are the Traction motors that UQM make in their Automotive range
https://www.uqm.com/English/products/pr ... fault.aspx

UQM also make commercial Vehicle systems, as well as E Drive transmissions.
Measure Twice Cut once.
If you're not sure about something, RTFM (Read The Flaming Manual)
francisco.shi
Senior Member
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 16:30
Real Name: Francisco
Location: Brisbane, Strathpine

Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by francisco.shi »

The specs are so close to the motor I am using that I think it is the same motor core.
francisco.shi
Senior Member
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 16:30
Real Name: Francisco
Location: Brisbane, Strathpine

Re: Pro's & Con's of Converting My EFi 2000 Toyota Hilux 4x4 into an EV 4x4

Post by francisco.shi »

$5000 sounds really cheap if it includes the inverter.
Do you know how much it would cost for a motor and inverter landed in Australia?
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