tractor conversion

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
pirpy
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tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

Hello
I want to convert small tractor to EV
IMT-542.jpg
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I have 16 x lifepo4 200 Ah for the project.
I want the conversion to be as cheap as possible, so Im looking to rewind industrial 4 pole 400 V AC motor 7.5 kWh to 22V .
original diesel engine in this tractor is 31 kW peak at 2250 rpm and 149 nM torque at 1400 rpm.
what peak torque can I expect from this motor?
As I understand I need to add an encoder to the motor, where can i get one that would work with let's say Kelly KAC-8080I

or would 10kW bldc be a better option ?

Thank you
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jonescg
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by jonescg »

What kind of work will it be doing? Will it be doing any serious cultivation or mainly towing things? Because the motor need not be too amazing. A re-wound industrial AC motor would certainly fit the cheap requirements, but it might need some kind of cooling added.

4 pole is ideal for most applications, and any VFD will make it spin, you just need to find a reasonably efficient one.
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antiscab
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by antiscab »

An encoder is only needed it you want fine torque control. On a tractor you could probably get away with either speed control only, or course torque control that running open loop without an encoder would offer
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

pirpy wrote: Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 05:58 ...rewind industrial 4 pole 400 V AC motor 7.5 kWh to 22V .
Although the specifications match your tractor I'm skeptical that someone would rewind it to 22Vac.
When you think about 400Vac/22Vac this is 18:1.
I'd think this would mean you'd only have 3 or 4 conductors per slot.
Or many in parallel.

This would add perhaps AUD$1,000 to the cost of the conversion.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

Possible alternatives are a series DC motor:
A00-4009
203-06-4001
ME1002
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

Possible alternatives for Magnet motor:
ME1302
ME1616
ME1507
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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pirpy
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

antiscab wrote: Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 08:51 An encoder is only needed it you want fine torque control. On a tractor you could probably get away with either speed control only, or course torque control that running open loop without an encoder would offer
thank you !


It will be doing light work, for heavy work I have this one
[tube]https://youtu.be/e2CAHfJqlFM[/tube]

The speed controll would be the best for tractor as it is the case with diesel engine.

The rewinding will not be the problem I would use the same wire but meny of them in paralel, the problem I'm expecting is with 3 or 4 wounds per coil I will not be able to make the motor 22 V but hope close to that .
I could lift the battery voltage but I'm planning to simply put my power wall 48 V lifepo4 cells to tractor and then use it for both aplications :)
Local rewind shop would charge me 300 € for rewinding 7.5 kW motor to lower woltage , and I already have a suitable motor in my junk bin :
7.5kW 4 pole 400 V
7.5kW 4 pole 400 V
7.5kw.jpg (907.15 KiB) Viewed 2045 times
I also have a DC motor in my junk bin:
72 V 80 A series DC  motor
72 V 80 A series DC motor
6 kW DC.jpg (662.12 KiB) Viewed 2045 times
I gues I could rewind the stator coils to lower voltage but this one does not have shaft that would allow me to mount a flywheel, ....

Comments appreciated
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

pirpy wrote: Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 05:58 As I understand I need to add an encoder to the motor, where can i get one that would work with let's say Kelly KAC-8080I
antiscab wrote: Thu, 24 Oct 2019, 08:51 An encoder is only needed it you want fine torque control.
The Kelly controllers do seem to be the cheapest option for an Induction motor.
KAC72601-8080I USD$700
KAC72701-8080I USD$800

They require a "Dual channel A/B encoder" to work.
I'm assuming they mean a quadrature encoder.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

Please don't buy this it's only an example
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/893080068.html
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

A curtis controller might work too:
1234SE-452X
1234SE-562X
But I expect they'll be harder to get and cost more.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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pirpy
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

So kelly or slider will not work without encoder ?
in speed mode?
slider:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 3e5fw0fNC3
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by antiscab »

likely the best answer is we won't know until someone tries it.
There may be a setting to run straight v/hz

It would be worth contacting kelly controls and asking
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Richo
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by Richo »

I did scan over the kelly manual yesterday and I was under the assumption it is required.
Someone must have already done it - its a case of finding it.
When I have more time...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

Hello
I find NetGain warp9 dc motor and I will put it in my tractor.
Is there a dc controller with built in regen function for this series wound DC motor?
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by antiscab »

The zappy h1 controller I remember being able to do Regen from a series wound motor.

You would need to move the brush timing back to neutral, and run a lower voltage.

Tbh, it's not worth trying to get Regen out of a series DC motor
Matt
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by brendon_m »

Also, how much regen is there truly available on a tractor? Not a lot of slowing down from 100km/h or coming down the blue mountains
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

The Voltage is around 72 V.
It's not so much getting the energy, back, it's maintaining constant rpm during downhill.
In low gear you could easily explode the motor.
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by antiscab »

ah, what you are asking is very difficult with a series wound motor
to achieve speed regulation would mean powering the field winding directly (ie 2V or so at 500A).
you might get away with doing this with a 12v controller, powered off your 12v battery, though you would be controlling this manually. more power through the field coils means lower rpm at which motor voltage reaches battery voltage.

you would be better off with a shunt, Permanent magnet or separately excited wound motor
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

I would be better of with ac motor I know, but I have the motor an it cost me 500 € and it will go in.
The seller of the motor also have evnetisc soliton1 but i refused it because of not having regen.
I gues all modern dc controllers with regen are for PMDC motors right ?
like this one:
https://www.kellycontrollers.eu/kdz72801e
or this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/500A-100V-48V- ... %7Ciid%3A1
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

antiscab wrote: Mon, 08 Jun 2020, 15:11 ah, what you are asking is very difficult with a series wound motor
to achieve speed regulation would mean powering the field winding directly (ie 2V or so at 500A).
you might get away with doing this with a 12v controller, powered off your 12v battery, though you would be controlling this manually. more power through the field coils means lower rpm at which motor voltage reaches battery voltage.
So I take 1 pb cell and 500A starter relay and when i want to brake,I need just connect the cell to the stator and I will have maximum breaking ? the energy will go throu flywheel diode in the dc controller to battery.
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by antiscab »

Yep, more or less.

Do measure the rpm the motor spins at when the field is separately powered, and the motor controller is full on.

If the motor is spinning faster than this when you connect the 2v battery to the field, the Regen current may be too high for the motor controller, which may damage the switching devices.
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by 4Springs »

pirpy wrote: Mon, 08 Jun 2020, 13:23 The Voltage is around 72 V.
It's not so much getting the energy, back, it's maintaining constant rpm during downhill.
In low gear you could easily explode the motor.
This is a good thought!
I'm also looking at converting a tractor, and I had assumed that DC was the only way to go. Here was my reasoning:
  • My rule of thumb is that if you use the breaks a lot, regen would be useful for you.
  • Nobody ever uses the breaks much in a tractor.
  • Therefore, regen would be useless in a tractor.
But what I hadn't thought of was that you don't use the breaks in a tractor because the engine breaking is so powerful. And since the breaks are really really crappy, there is no way to slow down going down a long hill. I don't think you'd explode the motor, you'd hear it first and push in the clutch. But then there is nothing to stop the tractor but the breaks. Or possibly the implement you're carrying!
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

Right!
I have hils on my farm and when I disperse manure I always go downhill and the engine breaks so I need regen.

I'm looking at this controller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Programmable-D ... 9616a438e7

it has regen capability.
Hope it is powerfull enaugh.?
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

In in event of crop spraying You need constant pto rpm and constant speed in down and uphill.
I have no plane fields on my farm.
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Re: tractor conversion

Post by pirpy »

I order the zapi h2 601 dc controller with regen and now I need a contactor for regen, it must be SPDT type.

TFR on the picture
regen on series dc.png
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Any sugestions?
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