Prelude conversion project - some questions

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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jonescg
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 21:02

I believe it's rated to 450 A and 1000 V DC.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by brunohill » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 18:08

Looks good Chris. I hope you know which red wire is the positive and which red wire is the negative?

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by francisco.shi » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 18:21

There is some red tape on the positive and black tape on the negative.

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by francisco.shi » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 18:21

jonescg wrote:
Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 21:02
I believe it's rated to 450 A and 1000 V DC.
Where did you get the connector from?

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 19:23

I bought these from Amphenol Australia, but EV-Power has a stash of them too.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 19:50

Spent today wiring up the CAN Bus between each of the Zeva modules.
I also made the female plug side of the 18-way connector. Like an idiot I started populating from the back, so it was that much harder to solder. Got there in the end.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 24 Feb 2019, 21:28

BMS dry run.jpg
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Took a little while to work out why it wasn't talking - I had to tell it which channel they were on :)

I haven't wired the last two modules up yet, but I'm sure they will be fine. What I am unsure of is whether or not the Greatland controller will play nice with the Zeva EVMS. The Zeva unit manages contactors and auxiliary contactors, isolation etc etc, but the controller is pretty dumb. I will have to work out the best way to use the features, and which ones I need to drop.

Ultimately, I want the process of plugging the charger in to close the master (auxiliary) contactor so that things like the DC/DC converter and air conditioning compressor can function. But I don't want the vehicle to be driveable in this state.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by oudevolvo » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 02:35

Nice progress!
Does the BMS support a three contactor setup?
So:
1. Main +
2. Charger -
3. Main -
Or perhaps two (Main / Charger)?
Then you can have a 'charge' mode where the main + closes and the charger relay and a 'discharge' mode where main + closes and the main - (or the other way around).

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 18:20

It supports two contactor outputs, main and auxiliary. I believe the difference between them is that the main contactor is also expecting a precharge process, while the auxiliary contactor is primarily for isolation when not in use. However in my case I will have the auxiliary contactor powering everything HV except the inverter, which is powered by its own start-up process, hence I will probably only use the Zeva system for opening the main contactor if a cell goes too low or something.

I took a day of paid leave today to help Daniel get a head start on the adaptor plate. It was a bit frustrating because I had to search for tools whenever i needed one, but also because the flywheel adaptor already mounted on the shaft of the motor was for a BMW and won't match the Honda flywheel. Moreover, it was stuck fast good and proper. No amount of heat, pulling, bashing, or prying was going to get it to budge. We may yet need to cut the bugger off, but damaging the output shaft would be a bad outcome. I really long for a single speed reduction motor-transaxle so this archaic approach is relegated to history.
ICE side.jpg
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Trans side.jpg
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Spacer plate.jpg
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Now kiss and make up.jpg
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Motor transmission.jpg
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The aluminium spacer plate is to give the motor the depth it needs to reach the clutch assembly. A new clutch is due to arrive tomorrow, so I hope we can get a decent flywheel adaptor made.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by brendon_m » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 18:40

I assume that means you are keeping the clutch.

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Mon, 25 Feb 2019, 19:01

Ideally, yes. That is to say, I have spent money on one, so I hope to see it used :D
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Tue, 26 Feb 2019, 21:57

Well while the motor and transmission are on a long date, I have some basic measurements to go on for the rest of the engine bay.
I need to fit the last two battery modules (total weight of 40 kg) as well as an aircon compressor, 12 V power steering unit, water heater, pumps, brake vacuum reservoir, inverter, onboard charger and DC/DC converter. Since the battery is the largest and heaviest item, it probably belongs somewhere towards the firewall and down a bit, since it will have a height of 200 mm or so. Inverter is much the same, so probably also towards the back. How are people mounting this 'shelf' in the engine bay? And are you making an effort to ensure it leaves most things fairly waterproof? I'm envisaging an H frame of sorts spanning anything above the motor, with a sheet of aluminium for splash resistance.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sat, 02 Mar 2019, 20:06

Fiberglassing the cover begins on Monday (AEVA stall at the Hyde Park Fair on Sunday)
Glassing lid.jpg
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I used film, packing tape and MDF to get the final shape. Will definitely wax and spray the whole thing with PVA release agent first (chop mat being tested for size).
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sat, 02 Mar 2019, 22:55

Some time back I asked Weber for help with finding the best sources of switched +12 V and a +12 V starter signal. He kindly recommended using the output of fuse 12 for the ON position, and the output of fuse 1 for energising the precharge relay. I have highlighted the relevant circuits on the manual:
Ignition wiring.JPG
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I looked in the engine bay and found the heavy duty coil supply wire (black and yellow) and removed the coil (not like I will need it anyway!). Once fused, this would be a good source of switched +12 V because it has the ampacity to run all the additional stuff I will be adding to the engine bay. The start position is used to power the coil of the precharge relay when putting the vehicle into drive mode, so it still has the same function. The black and white wire is the starter solenoid supply, which is heavy duty but apparently unfused. The blue and red wire leaving fuse 1 is though, and given all it needs to do is hold a relay for a few seconds, would be far more appropriate. I double-checked these supplies with a couple of 12 V bulbs (although in the video I tap into the switched +12 V further down the line).

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by brendon_m » Sat, 02 Mar 2019, 23:39

I'd recommend the black /yellow trace coming from fuse 12 for "ign" because it's fused. Less burning the car to the ground if there is a short.
Everything else on that fuse is being ripped out or was never fitted (except the speed sensor)

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by weber » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 08:24

jonescg wrote:
Sat, 02 Mar 2019, 22:55
Some time back I asked Weber for help with finding the best sources of switched +12 V and a +12 V starter signal.
Chris, You didn't say what I told you, but allowed the reader to assume that I recommend the highlighted routes on your diagram. I did not. Here's what I wrote in email (bold added):
weber wrote:Usually one of the IGx pins from the ignition switch stays on while the key is in the START position. In your case it looks like the one marked IG1, since the ignition coil has to stay powered during starting. So IG1 is what you should feed to one side of the coil of the main traction contactor. The other side of its coil will connect to pin 16 of the 16-pin connector.

The precharge contactor coil will connect between the ST pin of the ignition switch and chassis (battery negative).

When I talk about connecting to IG1 and ST above, this should actually be via the relevant fuses, e.g. No 12 and No 1.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 08:33

Thanks for clearing that up, Dave; indeed that's what the reader might have interpreted. I have edited the original post (hey, it was late!).

I believe the output of fuse 12 in the engine bay is the light gauge wire I hooked the bulb to in the video, but I did find that the main wiring to the ignition coil was both easy to access and heavy enough to handle all auxiliary loads. I intend on mounting a fuse at this point since the coil is now redundant.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 15:07

Well the Hyde Park Fair was a bust because nobody could make it there till tomorrow (it's Labour day in WA on the 4th) so we'll all make the effort tomorrow.

So that meant fibreglassing today. Just as well, it's only 30'C today, 37'C tomorrow!

No-mould approach has its pluses and minuses, but mainly minuses. It's almost impossible to get a good layup on a soft surface, but I'm satisfied it will work. If there are any holes or weak spots it can be patched up easily enough.
20190302_221816.jpg
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Cling-film and packing tape were used to protect the battery beneath from getting fiberglass resin on them, while a generous application of release wax and PVA made doubly sure it would come off. The odd shape at the front is because there is structural beam crossing the body at this point which needs to be cleared.
Glassed up.jpg
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Not my finest work (when was fiberglassing a strength for me though?) - the height should be OK, except there is a high point on the driver's side which might need grinding and patching.

I will probably have to grind and patch the valley at the front where the beam is, otherwise it's not too bad considering.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by francisco.shi » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 16:00

Do all the batteries go in one pack or do you have another pack to make?

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 18:34

Two battery modules go up the front. I will have to make a protective cover for them too, or alternatively I can just go around them with silicone and leave them as a talking point. That said this pack has about 300 volts and 19 kWh - so an entirely useful car as is.

Relief that the lid popped off without a fuss, however it will need to be touched up in several places. It fouls where the stuctural beam is as well as the front passenger side top edge. Basically going to need a cut, scuff and patch job.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by francisco.shi » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 18:39

Are the two modules at the front the same as the one you are doing now in the picture?

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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by rhills » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 19:49

The nice thing about fibreglassing is that most sins can be fixed with an angle grinder (or Dremel for venial sins 😁 ) and patching.

What resin are you using? I've been using Bote Cote exclusively for the past few years now. Not cheap, but the 2:1 ratio of resin to hardener makes for easy mixing, especially for small quantities, it doesn't go off quite as quickly in the heat as other epoxies I've worked with, it flows nicely, making it much easier to get a smooth finish. And finally, it doesn't have that organic stink that feels like it's eating into your brain!
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 20:21

Fransicso - yes two of the modules pictured above will go up the front (8 in total). Since they are 12s modules there will be 96s in total.

Rob - just regular old general purpose styrene polyester resin - pretty whiffy stuff, but easy to work with. The glass mat is the hard stuff to work with...

If I knew I was making more of these I would have got a buck made, from which I could lay the glass and resin up against, since the inside is what matters most. But for now I will be patching sins and indiscretions with small patches of glass and resin. I might even add glass in a few corners where I'd like a little more strength.
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by rhills » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 20:46

jonescg wrote:
Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 20:21
Rob - just regular old general purpose styrene polyester resin - pretty whiffy stuff, but easy to work with.
I assume you're aware that of the three types of fibreglass resin (polyester, vinylester and epoxy) polyester is the least impervious to water penetration? I suspect this doesn't matter as much for a car as it does for a boat, but it's probably the main reason I only use epoxy these days.
jonescg wrote:
Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 20:21
The glass mat is the hard stuff to work with...
I agree, it keeps refusing to lie down and go where it's told to go! You probably know this, but I've found the key thing is to make sure the mat is fully saturated with resin. If I can, I lay the mat flat on some plastic and saturate it with resin first before transferring it to the job. Then I use a roller (or dabbing with a brush for smaller jobs/tight corners) to work all the air bubbles out. For corners I keep rolling away from the corner to both push out the air bubbles and work the matting tight around the bend. Never easy though!

I forgot to add that from the pix it looks a very neat, professional bit of moulding!
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Re: Prelude conversion project - some questions

Post by jonescg » Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 21:03

rhills wrote:
Sun, 03 Mar 2019, 20:46

I forgot to add that from the pix it looks a very neat, professional bit of moulding!
Ah, I definitely used the correct resolution on the images then :lol:

I have a bit more leeway for clearance on the inside than I do on the outside, so where it fouls the chassis I can cut the offending section and glass to the inside. I find the brush is ideal for stippling the corners and pushing air bubbles out of the way, more than the rollers anyway. But rollers are great for when you have a decent mould to press up against. Otherwise the mat tends to just fall off if it's not laying flat.
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