Converting a 2010 Honda Jazz to electric

Post by **mercmobily** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 03:29

I have my great Honda Jazz. It's a great little car. I would like to convert it to electric.
I am a software engineer, and a close friend of mine is a fantastic mechanic and panel beater.

The engine *works*, but I believe in an electric future and don't want to be the one polluting my children's air.

I live in Perth. So, speed in not an issue, but range is.

Questions:

* What is a producer of a *good* quality kit?
* Is a range of 140Km on 80% charge achievable? Note that I am after distance, NOT power/speed.
* Is the weight of the batteries a problem for a little car like the jazz?
* What kind of cost can I expect, for the batteries and the kit?
* I saw the "hints" section, which was FANTASTIC! Any specific hints about a newbie like me?
* What kind of money am I looking at, for the kit (controller/batteries/motor), without labour?
* As a software engineer, can I help? In terms of controller, are there programmable ones I can tinker with?
* Will it be hard to get it through the pits?

THANK YOU PEOPLE!

Merc.

Post by **Paul9** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 16:01

Hi Merc and welcome,

Almost everyone on this forum knows more than I do but I'll throw in my 20cents worth.

* What is a producer of a *good* quality kit?

I don't know if there are any suppliers of kits now. I bought my set up as a kit back in 2008 but the gentleman supplying the kit is no longer in business. The plus about you being located in Perth is that three Aussie distributors of EV components are in the Perth area. Google "EV Power", "EV Works" and "ZEVA" to get their websites.

* Is a range of 140Km on 80% charge achievable? Note that I am after distance, NOT power/speed.

I get about 80km range from my 100ah lithium batteries so to get 140km range I guess you would need an amp hour capacity of about 180ah to 200ah.

* Is the weight of the batteries a problem for a little car like the jazz?

Probably not but people on these forums with larger capacity battery banks than mine would be able to advise you.

* What kind of cost can I expect, for the batteries and the kit?

If you check the websites of the companies I listed in my answer above, you would be able to come up with a very accurate answer to this question. Most people on here tend to estimate an all-up cost of $10,000 to $12,000 for a conversion like yours.

* I saw the "hints" section, which was FANTASTIC! Any specific hints about a newbie like me?

You keep asking questions and we will keep trying to answer them. I have continually asked questions since I started my conversion in 2008 and the people here are extremely knowledgeable and helpful.

* What kind of money am I looking at, for the kit (controller/batteries/motor), without labour?

As above, around $10k to $12k but check the above websites for more info.

* As a software engineer, can I help? In terms of controller, are there programmable ones I can tinker with?

There are programmable controllers available but I have had no experience with them so can't help there.

* Will it be hard to get it through the pits?

I don't know the registration requirements in WA but I didn't have too much trouble with the rather complicated rego procedures here in NSW.

Despite my 8 years of EV building and modifying I am still a novice. Most others here will be able to give you better answers than I.

Cheers
Paul

Post by **Johny** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 16:37

Hi Merc and welcome.
For 140km range it looks to me like you would need around 24kwh of batteries.
To get that pack into a Jazz without exceeding GVM most likely you are going to have to remove the rear seats which will give you another 160-180kg to play with - and some room. Is a 2 seater OK?
The Jazz power plant is quite light which doesn't bode well for a conversion.

The 24kwh pack (Lithium) cost may be the biggest issue. I'm guessing around $10k just for the cells. Add BMS and charger to that.
Motor and controller might be $5K to $8k.
So around $20-22k - just a guess.

A 2010 won't have ESC which is good:
"Honda has just released the new 2011 Honda Jazz GLi in Australia. It now comes standard with electronic stability control, while side and curtain airbags are optional."

but you will still have to ensure that you can prove to an engineer that the ABS system is still fully operational. There may be some CANbus reverse engineering required to convince the dashboard that there is still a working power-plant in the vehicle.

Post by **mercmobily** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 17:09

Hi,

> Hi Merc and welcome.

Thank you!

> For 140km range it looks to me like you would need around 24kwh of batteries.

looking at this page:

EVG12V400A 12.8V 400Ah 5.1 365 x 292 x 320 55kg

Does that mean that I would need six of those?
(meaning that they will give me, cumulatively, 25kwh?
It looks to me like there will be about 10Kg per kwh.

> To get that pack into a Jazz without exceeding GVM most likely you are going to have to remove the rear seats which will give you another 160-180kg to play with - and some room. Is a 2 seater OK?

Hummmm I have 2 little children. So I guess the answer is "no"... Maybe that's the wrong car then?

> The Jazz power plant is quite light which doesn't bode well for a conversion.

OK (damn...)

> The 24kwh pack (Lithium) cost may be the biggest issue. I'm guessing around $10k just for the cells.

OK.

> Add BMS and charger to that.

OK.

> Motor and controller might be $5K to $8k.

OK.

> So around $20-22k - just a guess.

Ouch OK.

> A 2010 won't have ESC which is good:
"Honda has just released the new 2011 Honda Jazz GLi in Australia. It now comes standard with electronic stability control, while side and curtain airbags are optional."

OK.

> but you will still have to ensure that you can prove to an engineer that the ABS system is still fully operational.

I am not 100% sure my car HAS an abs...

> There may be some CANbus reverse engineering required to convince the dashboard that there is still a working power-plant in the vehicle.

Ahahaha OK.
Ideally, I would rip out pretty much everything from the dash and re-engineer it completely.

Merc.

Post by **jonescg** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 17:55

Hi Merc,
I'm putting together battery packs using lithium cobalt cells which offer 185 Wh/kg, compared to the ~100 Wh/kg of LiFePO4. It means a 24 kWh battery for your car would weigh in at 130 kg. Unfortunately they aren't cheap - said battery would cost about $26k, but could be as low as $20k.
Chris

Post by **mercmobily** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 18:10

I thought battery prices were already approaching $100/kwh -- maybe $150. But... from what I am seeing, we are still in the $500-$700 mark?

That's a bummer.

Post by **jonescg** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 20:59

Depends on what you want really - you can source Nissan Leaf packs for about $130/kWh and these represent really good value. Likewise for crashed Chevy Volt packs. But if these two options won't fit, or can't be made to work the next options are taking new cells and building a custom battery pack. I think the LiFePO4 option wouldn't really meet your needs, but it will be much cheaper.

Post by **mercmobily** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 21:14

I see. So, the big questions are:

* Is it easy enough/possible to source a Nissan Leaf pack?
* Would it be enough for my conversion?
* How many kWh do they have?
* Is it technically feasible to purchase TWO of those packs and use them together?

Post by **mercmobily** » Wed, 21 Sep 2016, 21:15

(Plus, I am not a spammer... I swear! Is there any way I could be given permission to post without approval...?)

Post by **jonescg** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 15:59

mercmobily wrote: (Plus, I am not a spammer... I swear! Is there any way I could be given permission to post without approval...?)

The surefire way is to join the AEVA as a financial member ($20 concession, $40 standard per annum). We'd all encourage you to do this anyway because we're a great organisation but if you can get along to the Freo EV Festival this weekend, or a branch meeting on the second Tuesday of the month, there's dozens of knowledgeable folks who can help you.

As for Leaf packs, I'd say get in touch with Graeme Manietta in Queensland (Suzi Auto, in Springwood) and find out when he's next bringing a bunch of cells in. From memory their energy density is up around 170 Wh/kg and come in well built enclosures.

Post by **tassie_tiger** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 16:12

removed

Post by **mercmobily** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 17:49

Wow that's awesome, will I see you there in person? I will definitely be there in freo!

Post by **Richo** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 20:42

jonescg wrote:you can source Nissan Leaf packs for about $130/kWh and these represent really good value.

$130/kWh Sounds a bit unrealistic...
You mean $130 per module?!?

The cells at your door is more like $375-400/kWh

So a 24kWh pack would be like $9,000-$10,000.

Post by **Richo** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 20:45

Johny wrote: The 24kwh pack (Lithium) cost may be the biggest issue. I'm guessing around $10k just for the cells. Add BMS and charger to that.
Motor and controller might be $5K to $8k.
So around $20-22k - just a guess.

I'd guess about the same.
Good work Johny

Post by **jonescg** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 20:47

Yeah whoops, sorry, I did mean per module

. This post from Graeme shows his most recent figures:

viewtopic.php?title=nissan-leaf-cells&p ... 640#p60920

Post by **Richo** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 20:49

What about the focus for sale?
viewtopic.php?title=converted-ford-focu ... 057#p62693

$18k and your done...

Post by **mercmobily** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 20:50

I can't access that page, permission denied...?

Post by **mercmobily** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 21:02

Which brings me to my next question I guess...
Is it even possible, today, to buy a second hand electric car (converted OR originally electric) that will travel more than 100Km in one charge, for less than $15,000?

Post by **Johny** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 21:05

mercmobily wrote: I can't access that page, permission denied...?

It appears to have been sold already.
From jonescg:
"Woah - just heard it's not for sale any more. Sorry, nothing to see here... "

Post by **evric** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 21:05

mercmobily wrote: I can't access that page, permission denied...?

Hi, This thread is in the For Sale/Wanted section, and is only available to AEVA Members.
To Join see the Membership Menu item of www.aeva.asn.au

Regards,
Eric
AEVA Membership Secretary

Post by **mikedufty** » Thu, 22 Sep 2016, 21:06

Chris said it is not for sale any more. If you just want an already made car, there will be an i-MiEV on the market soon, and there are still a couple of demo Leafs around.
Is the building it yourself bit a major objective though?
How strict is the 140km requirement?

Post by **g4qber** » Fri, 23 Sep 2016, 00:46

whose i-MiEV mike? yours?

Post by **mikedufty** » Fri, 23 Sep 2016, 18:27

My father just bought a leaf. I'm assuming he will sell his i-MiEV once it is fixed.

Post by **g4qber** » Fri, 23 Sep 2016, 20:30

Bought from Northside Nissan ?

Post by **Richo** » Fri, 23 Sep 2016, 20:35

mercmobily wrote:Is it even possible, today, to buy a second hand electric car (converted OR originally electric) that will travel more than 100Km in one charge, for less than $15,000?

Most converted cars that I know of didn't have 100km+ range to start with.
The Focus was the first that I'd seen 2nd hand with that capability.
The few that did have over 100km range it's unlikely they'd be up for sale for quite a while.

So that really only leaves the production vehicles.

If you went with a 20kWh pack (~100km) that's $8k.
That's $7k for the rest.
$1500 motor
$1800 controller
$1000 Charger
$450 DC/DC (12V charger)

$2,250 left for battery boxes, cabling, fuses, contactors, mechanical couplings, motor adapter, BMS, Inspections...