Classic Holden Conversion

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
T1 Terry
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Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 14:46

Does a Miev mechanically change a gear for reverse, or does it spin the motor in reverse? In a conventional diff driven via a tailshaft, the pinion is designed for a primary drive direction and would not last very long driven in the opposite direction, front wheel drive differentials are a different gear design and would not be troubled spinning in either direction as long as they are oil bath type.
As far as locking the 2 speed Powerglide in low, this can be achieved manually from the gear selector, but it will not be happy running full time in low range as the planetary gears will be spun at a very high rpm for long periods, in drive the planetary set is locked so the whole gear set spins as one and this is the mode the gearbox was designed to use the majority of the time. My advice would be to fit a 9"Ford diff housing, there are very high ratio gear sets available for these, all the way up to 6.5:1 ratio. They are available with alloy casing these days as well so light weight and disc brakes for better stopping power.

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Adverse Effects
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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 15:03

T1 Terry wrote: My advice would be to fit a 9"Ford diff housing,
WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT

putting a F#$D part in a glorious HOLDEN

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Post by Johny » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 16:35

I think the idea is the transplant the whole of the iMiev drive train into the holden Terry. To this end the question is would the existing iMiev drive system mechanically be OK running is reverse all the time.

Someone with an iMiev - go reverse and see if it whines!

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acmotor
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 16:52

Whine ? No way.
The IMiEV reverse is just emotor running in reverse so you can do that by the wiring changes already mentioned.
There is no helical cut 90 deg direction change pinion gear with direction preference as Jonny suggested. All drive from emotor to wheels is parallel, there is no 90deg transfer.
90deg transfers are far more energy loss in geartrains than BTW.
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 17:12

'1 speed Transmission' is a reduction gear set (7.065:1 to wheels) driving directly to the crown wheel of the rear differential (RWD) via independent half shafts. Motor is permanently coupled and forward/reverse/neutral are electronic functions.
The gearbox contains an auto transmission type parking pawl. Smart move.
This gearbox contains the oil in the vehicle. 750ml of 'auto transmission fluid' ATF III to be changed at 105,000km
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T1 Terry
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Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 18:02

Adverse Effects wrote:
T1 Terry wrote: My advice would be to fit a 9"Ford diff housing,
WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT

putting a F#$D part in a glorious HOLDEN

Image Image

Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image

I know it's degrading for a well built Ford part to be fitted to any other vehicle, but when you need tough and strong the Ford part is the choice of champions Image

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Post by TooQik » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 20:10

This is an interesting read regarding the teeth of differentials: http://gbrutah.com/product-catalog/cs-d ... l-gearing/ and may help answer some questions about the affect on the gears when running the motor "backwards".
Johny wrote:Do iMievs "whine" when going in reverse.
Most vehicles whine in reverse due to the fact their reverse gear is a straight cut gear, as opposed to a helical cut gear.
Last edited by TooQik on Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 20:31

Just to be clear would the iMiev drive train+emotor replace the diff in the same position?
ie nothing in the engine bay...

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 28 Jan 2015, 21:08

Interesting link there TooQik. Image
So the lack of power wasting hypoid gears in the imiev drive train is why mitsi can run ATF rather than syrup hypoid oil.

I wonder if credit should be allowed to mitsi if they designed the drivetrain truly bidirectional given the max regen torque exactly matches the max forward torque ?
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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 19:54

Johny wrote:
acmotor wrote:The gears won't care. They are bidirectional of course.
Not sure about that. Do iMievs "whine" when going in reverse. I think adverse mentioned that most automotive gears are cut for a preferred direction.


Diffs and gearboxes do definitely have a preferred direction of rotation, and in some cases use that to properly engage the load in the box.

Adverse Effects wrote:
T1 Terry wrote: My advice would be to fit a 9"Ford diff housing,
WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT

putting a F#$D part in a glorious HOLDEN

Image Image

Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
Think about it for a sec and this is not a bad idea. Do like I did and get a custom housing made up by Strange (can actually be cheaper than trying to source a second hand housing and modifying it). They are known to fit in EJs, and with the EJ it only has a couple of pads welded on for the leaf springs.

Using 6.5:1 ratio or around that mark would remove the need for any harsh driving around in first (gear drag). Nothing in my set up is actually made by Ford it's made by other manufacturers.

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Post by EV2Go » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 20:20

Richo wrote: Just to be clear would the iMiev drive train+emotor replace the diff in the same position?
ie nothing in the engine bay...
I see that as being a nightmare to get engineered, as there were no rear engined EJs ever produced. Putting the motor in the front and turning it sideways would be much easier to get passed.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 20:41

carnut1100 wrote:Drivetrain package.......might need boot floor modification to clear it.
Thinking that the motor/reduction unit mounted where the original diff was, with a fabricated deDion axle mounted on the original leaf springs...


Ah went back to the first post.
Motor replaces diff in back.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 20:43

Either way sounds ugly to me.

It may be better value to sell the Mitsu stuff for someone else's conversion in a FWD car and start fresh.

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Post by T1 Terry » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 20:47

EV2Go wrote:
Richo wrote: Just to be clear would the iMiev drive train+emotor replace the diff in the same position?
ie nothing in the engine bay...
I see that as being a nightmare to get engineered, as there were no rear engined EJs ever produced. Putting the motor in the front and turning it sideways would be much easier to get passed.

So is the idea to weld up the sun gears in the diff of the iMiev use one output shaft to drive to the differential? If that is the case, you would need a very low ratio diff in the rear as the 7:1 reduction is already achieved in the iMiev gear train, any reduction in the diff ratio would multiply this 7:1 ratio. I think there is a 2.0:1 ratio diff centre available, that would then make the final drive ratio from E motor to wheel 14:1.

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Post by Johny » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 20:47

...or look for the original ICE i car and transplant to it?

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Post by Johny » Thu, 29 Jan 2015, 20:50

...or convert the EJ to front wheel drive.

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Post by EV2Go » Fri, 30 Jan 2015, 17:04

T1 Terry wrote:
EV2Go wrote:
Richo wrote: Just to be clear would the iMiev drive train+emotor replace the diff in the same position?
ie nothing in the engine bay...
I see that as being a nightmare to get engineered, as there were no rear engined EJs ever produced. Putting the motor in the front and turning it sideways would be much easier to get passed.

So is the idea to weld up the sun gears in the diff of the iMiev use one output shaft to drive to the differential? If that is the case, you would need a very low ratio diff in the rear as the 7:1 reduction is already achieved in the iMiev gear train, any reduction in the diff ratio would multiply this 7:1 ratio. I think there is a 2.0:1 ratio diff centre available, that would then make the final drive ratio from E motor to wheel 14:1.

T1 Terry
Nope suggesting remove the step down gearing and diff altogether and just use the motor, connect it to a 9" in the rear via a tail shaft. I don't think the rear of an EJ would be all that suitable for mounting a motor, as there is no real chassis back there. Alternately make it front wheel drive. Hasn't been done either but it would be where the original engine was located.

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Post by carnut1100 » Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 14:57

Yes, the idea was to mount the whole unit at the back, preserving RWD and leaving the engine bay for batteries and controller.
The ideal would be to run the entire drive unit on the stock mounts, fabricate mounts on the Holden chassis so it bolts in unmodified.
I've been around the hot rod scene enough to know that I can mount the drive unit in a way that will pass engineering and be strong enough.
The issue is that the motor sits forward of the axle line, which would poke it into the rear seat.
By flipping it backwards there would be a small hump in the boot floor which is not a problem as the boot floor is not flat already, and as far as strength goes half of the area I would need to cut is already a hole for the fuel tank.
I would cut the whole boot floor out between the chassis rails and make a new one to suit which would be stronger than original anyway.
Possibly split the battery pack and put some in the boot floor as well.

Rear mounting the motor won't be a problem, with batteries up front the weight distribution will still be nose heavy, although I will be aiming for a 55/45 distribution if possible.

The biggest job would be fabricating a deDion axle...
No problem making up a jig to keep the mounting points parallel, in fact probably easier than jigs for fabricating and shortening diff housings...again, I've been around the hot rod scene enough to know iit's feasible.
Thinking that using fwd hubs is the go...I think there's a Volvo hub that mounts to a flat surface with three bolts which keeps Holden stud pattern...Just got to see if I can fit old gHolden wheels over the brakes.
The other thing to consider is leaving leaf springs or swapping to a five or six link rear end... Five link with panhard bar is easier, six link with watts link is technically better.
Both mean more fabrication but both mean better handling.
Front end would be a swap to LH torana for better handling, discs, rack and pinion while keeping original stud pattern.

The big issue with running a differential backwards is the hypoid gears which don't like running backwards.
Looking at the diagram of imiev transaxle I'm confident now about running it backwards, there aren't any hypoid gears in that setup.
Sounds like easy job to swap motor direction so this is looking better and better.

The alternative was going to be removing the transaxle entirely and using just the motor but getting the right reduction drive was the issue under consideration.
Knowing a 9" goes down to 6:1 will be good to know in future conversions........

Swapping into a petrol I car isn't an option.
We were selling the imiev because it's a four seater. With new baby we need at least five seats and the six of an EJ would come in handy sometimes...
Besides, we both love the EJ shape, and my wife had one many years ago as one of her first cars...So there is an emotional side to choosing an EJ.
I was discussing with her how I still wanted to do a conversion one day, thinking of a Morris Minor, and she said she wanted to do a conversion one day as well...but that our ideas of a cool car to cconvert would probably differ (she thinking I wanted to convert a Volvo 240...which I still do someday!) so I asked her what she would consider a cool conversion and she said "EJ!".
I thought it would be too heavy for the imiev drive train until I looked up the kerb weight which is within 30kg.....choice made!

If I can, I would like to mount the batteries up front and make an extra battery box in the boot floor and squeeze in another 2-3 kWh if I can do it without upsetting the car electronics.
Question is, if I tap the high voltage at the battery pack (maybe where the chademo wires go in) and have a second pack with standalone bms that will shunt at 0.1v under what the car does, then will the car just charge until the main pack is full even though power is bleeding off into the aux pack?
Will the guessometer and fuel gauge still work on the main pack which just gets supplemented by the aux pack and lasts longer?

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Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 15:47

What type of gear set is the final ratio set up, is it driven along the axle line or below the axle line like a hypoid diff assembly? If it is a hypoid design you will have lubrication problems as the gear set will no longer pull oil out of the pool between the teeth but rather rely on oil clinging to the teeth and fed in from the top to provide lubrication. The fix would be an oil pump and the nozzle positioned to feed directly at the point the gears mesh.

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Post by TooQik » Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 16:54

Here's a nice cutaway picture of the i-Miev gearbox:

Image

As you can see, the gears all run parallel to each other so I don't believe oiling or direction will be a problem.

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Post by T1 Terry » Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 18:39

Over centre drive rather than low set oil bath lubrication, see the ledge over the green gear set, that is a catch tray to direct splashed oil into the messing area of the gear set, so there must have been a problem previously with lack of lubrication due to the direction of rotation and the oil path was too long around the outside path, if that tray was extended to feed oil across the blue gear set the reverse direction would have the green gear fed from under neither and splash oil up onto the catch tray and fed into the next set of meshing teeth reducing dry run wear.
An actual inspection would be required to determine which gear set that splash tray was designed to feed into, it could be the other way around and it is designed to feed oil onto the blue gear in the original design, this would require the shelf being shortened to feed the oil onto the green gear instead.

T1 Terry
EDIT: maybe a second tray shaped to feed oil into the meshing spot between the green and yellow gear would be a better option, then both gear sets are well lubricated no matter which direction the rotation goes.
Last edited by T1 Terry on Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 07:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by carnut1100 » Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 18:43

Awesome!
Now to figure out how to add extra batteries without upsetting the system...

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Post by Adverse Effects » Sun, 01 Feb 2015, 19:50

there helical cut gears right?

if so there made to mainly travel in 1 direction as the cut makes the gear push/thrust to 1 side because of the cut and the bearings are set up to deal with it so i still would ask someone that had definitive knowledge of the box about it

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Post by acmotor » Mon, 02 Feb 2015, 06:17

The iMIEV gear train is designed and clearly functions with torque in both directions and with rotation foward and backwards. Don't the axial forces of helical cut gears reverse with torque reversal so I am thinking that rotation reversal would be fine as the gear train design covers that axial force range detail already.
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Post by Richo » Mon, 02 Feb 2015, 21:05

carnut1100 wrote:
I've been around the hot rod scene enough to know that I can mount the drive unit in a way that will pass engineering and be strong enough.
You the man Image

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