thoughts on an electric people mover?

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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Adverse Effects
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 07 Aug 2014, 01:14

Bluefang wrote:controler Are the controllers, need 2 of the Max E per hub

hub motor Are the hubs.


you need 2 controllers to run 1 motor?

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Bluefang
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by Bluefang » Thu, 07 Aug 2014, 01:25

yup, its abit unique :)

Its essentially 2 motors wound on a stator using the same magnet ring. Works very well and atm i am pushing 30kw+ into my motorbike which is using the motor as a hub and its not getting too warm unless i am in constant stop start traffic so i believe the 94% efficiency rating. So 6 phase leads and 2 sets of halls exit both motors. Also a temperature switch set for 90degrees, very easily changed to a 10k thermistor.

Using 2 controllers makes it much easier to run using fairly common controllers, atm i am using 2 Kelly controllers at 84V on the motorbike. Not keen on the kelly controllers anymore as the start up current limiting is absolutely sh*t and cannot be adjusted. I have bought a pair of the controllers i am recommending and they should be here soon but i have personally used a mates single controller bike with a high powered standard hub motor and its very punchy off the line :).

4 of the hubs would make one nice ride specially when controlled properly. :)
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by Richo » Fri, 08 Aug 2014, 20:46

There are a few issues with that before considering the hub motors:

1. DOT approval for Australia
2. Engineering cert for mounting
3. Braking

Those motors are designed for motorbikes - not a 1.5T+ car.
Also motorbikes have less stringent requirements for eV conversions.

So I doubt it would be cheaper after meeting all those requirements.
Assuming it would ever meet them.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by Johny » Fri, 08 Aug 2014, 22:13

Richo wrote: There are a few issues with that before considering the hub motors:
I agree with Richo - it would be a nightmare to get through engineering especially since the hub motors would constitute extra un-sprung mass on the wheels.

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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by Bluefang » Fri, 08 Aug 2014, 23:24

I think i mentioned that the aim would be to run standard half shafts with a belt/chain drive to the hub motor, so it would not be in the wheel. So it would not effect the braking etc requirements. Sorry i should not refer to it as a hub more just as a brushless motor.

The reason i am suggesting that motor is...94% efficient, readily available and extremely cheap for what it is. Rather then thinking about the standard use just think of it as a reasonably low RPM easy to drive 15-20kg brushless motor.
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by Richo » Mon, 11 Aug 2014, 20:16

Yeah that would make it better.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by TooQik » Fri, 15 Aug 2014, 21:10

As an owner of a 7 seat 1997 Discovery I can say that if you intend to use it regularly to transport two extra people in the "cargo" area I would not like to be one of those people. To get to the seats requires entry from the very rear of the vehicle, it's a bit of a climb to get in and out, there is not a lot of room in the seating area and the seats are basic at best.

I think you would be better served with a Mitsubishi Delica (as Adverse Effects listed), this would be a much more comfortable ride for your passengers as well as allowing easier access.

The Discovery and Delica are both similar in weight also.

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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by carnut1100 » Mon, 18 Aug 2014, 00:23

Well......it seems as if one of the imievs is being sold and we are almost certainly getting a 2002 Tarago for a while.
After I sell my house I get to buy a tidy late '90s one (for RWD ease...) and convert it.
Then we can sell the 2002.


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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by 7circle » Mon, 22 Sep 2014, 09:51

You mentioned the Toyota Estima grey import, that looks like the Tarago.

... How do they get reverse to front and rear axles???

So I've been trying to get a clearer understanding of the Toyota eFOUR system that uses the HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) by linking the ICE/x/MG1 via the front_wheel/road/rear_wheel to MG2 on the rear diff.

And can't find detailed break-down of the mechanicals on any forums...so far.

Some local gumtree ads have " vehicle features an electric motor providing 13Kw of front and 18Kw of rear power in addition to the 117Kw 2.4 litre petrol engine" which seems rather low power... but other sites.. list peak power.

The Green Car Congress article intruducing the estima minivan suggests maximum 50kW rear axle powered motor and 130Nm max torque, plus the the front electric motor with 105kW peak.
The front motor offers 105 kW peak output and is coupled with a speed reduction gear to amplify torque. With the speed reduction gear, the front motor delivers maximum torque of 270 Nm.

The rear E-Four motor offer maximum output of 50 kW and maximum torque of 130 Nm. The E-Four motor assists the engine and front motor as needed and continuously optimizes the allocation of power between the front and rear wheels. The Estima hybrid offers an all-electric mode.

A 245V NiMH battery pack provides the energy storage. The variable voltage system of the power control unit uses a booster circuit to increase the voltage supplied from the battery to the motors from 245V to 650V, increasing the power output of the front and rear motors. The battery pack is mounted within the center console, ...
This link gas more tech styled info at green auto blog - toyota-estima-hybrid-gets-a-full-redesign

It mentions "Powertrain:     THS II with motor speed reduction device+ E-Four "

So for future reference and with ideas like Antiscabis Lithium conversions.
Taking a Toyota Estima / Previa / Alphard / Vellfire and making it plugin PHEV or even better tossing the ICE for more battery space. (unless a bio-diesel or E100 plant-matter fuel could be used for long range)

These are very similar mechanicals to the Highlander and Lexus xxxh AWD models
But they have MG1 and MG2 up front and a MG3 at the rear.

So if the 650V bus-bars could be tapped into for direct 160s ( x 4V) battery pack, or a more powerful boost converter added for 100kWpeak, the minivan could be a real contender for zero emission transport.

Estima 2001-2003
Image
Estima 2006-now
Image
Alphard
Image
Vellfire
Image

This is as close as I could find to mechanical layout....
Image
Which is useless.

This may need a more specific thread, but as these are available in Australia as used imports they could be a tempting long term multi-purpose vehicle with electric drive-train fitted.

So would be great to know the insides of the front and rear transmissions.

...Looks to me as a great base for a nomad solar campervan with a dickie aero-trailer for panels and ebikes and eCanoes.
for well under $20k Image

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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by antiscab » Mon, 22 Sep 2014, 16:35

oh man the japanese really do get the best stuff

one thought about putting a battery on the intermediate 650v DC bus - it's only actually at 650v when the e-motors have to put out full power at top speed.

There may be degredation in performance if the DC bus is at 650v at low speeds as the inverters will have a harder time producing the correct waveforms. how much and whether it matters would require building and testing Image
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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by 7circle » Wed, 24 Sep 2014, 16:54

These MPV's have a wide market to appeal to.
The limited road ice makes AWD in city areas of limited financial benefit.

The Japanese diverse lifestyle mix is more complicated than the HSD.

I'm still not convinced that the front transmission only has a single Motor/Generator.

If there is NO clamp on the ICE drive shaft to allow MG1 torque to drive the wheels.
This would limit EV mode to the rear axle MGr drive.

The clamp function is similar to the Hi/Lo gear in the Highlander/Lexus AWD but not on the motor.

I like the "Nomograph" with the Motor voltages added at:
http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/ginv/VH.html

Image

It helps visualise the neede motor voltages at operating RPMs.
With thoughts of field weakening. But not the use of MPH not km/h that caught me for a while.

If there was a low cost way to flip the ICE-MG1 fulcrum by locking the ICE crankshaft or driving by the auxillary belt pulley side by another motor ... safely... then power to MG1 could drive the the wheels.

Seems all too complicated and limited by battery voltage and boosts and motor Volts/RPM ratios... blah/blah...

If 650V to the Motor controllers cause a problem with controlling the current ripple of the motor inductance when the motor RPM is low causing a large ( DCbus - BEMF ) difference of more than the battery nominal voltage, then a higher PWM rate would be needed. But this may not be possible.

Just keeps opening more challenges to a simple problem.
Torque to wheels from battery.

7c

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thoughts on an electric people mover?

Post by carnut1100 » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 00:49

I looked at the Estima hybrids....discounted them for now.
We ended up with a T4 Syncro VW Transporter...loads of room under for batteries and a big AC motor through the gearbox, leave it in 2nd gear, take the lever off....all set.
When the motor dies...........
Until then, I'll have to be happy with my iMiEV...

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