NCOP14 V2

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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Jeff Owen
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NCOP14 V2

Post by Jeff Owen » Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 21:11

Can somebody point me at a copy of the new NCOP14.

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Post by Catavolt » Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 21:30


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Thalass
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Post by Thalass » Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 22:16

I thought there was a newer version than 2006? Or is that one still in the works?

Also: I'm sure it is, but judging by the wording NCOP14 is aimed at cars, rather than motorcycles. There isn't a separate document for two wheeled vehicles, is there? (You can never be too sure when you're dealing with legalities)
Last edited by Thalass on Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 12:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 23:05

I would be putting my money on yes... Trikes falls under NCOP15 so I would guess bikes would also be seperate.

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Post by 7circle » Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 23:46

Good poit Thalass, 2 wheelers and Mopeds may be covered elsewhere.

First its a bit confusing as the whole set of guidelines is under
VSB "14" (Which NCOP14 is part of)
Once your in an NCOP document it doesn't refer to the NCOP No of the document other than the Filename itself.

And I laugh at the disclaimer not to contact DOTARS about the NCOP's they are "Website Service Only"

On Page 7 of NCOP14 it shows a "summary of checklists and ICV vehicle approval codes" (ICV is individually constructed Vehicle not internal combustion vehicle Image )

Most conversions would fit in the category "Significant Modifications to a Production Vehicle"

This mentions Trikes but not Motorcycles or Mopeds.
But does say vehicles less than 4.5 Tonne (but says it could still apply to over 4.5 Tonne vehicles)

NCOP10C is for ICV Motorcyles. As per this page: National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)

Also found checklist for "L" vehicles on

Streetrod Guidelines too.

There are heaps of Guidelines and then there are COMLAW stuff (full of legal terminology)

And there's SEVs stuff, which inhibits imports of things like TOYOTA ESTIMA Hybrid and PRIUS NHW11 or other cars that disrupt the "playing field".

It gives me wobbly knees just thinking of trying to navigate the labyrinth of codes/regs and guidelines.

Good thing for AEVA and its Forums.
Highlights that the approval engineer is the one to review all issues with.

I'm thinking a trawl through the COMLAW docs may be enlightening about motorbikes and voltage protection requirements.
ie orange wiring for over 36V

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Post by Jeff Owen » Mon, 13 Sep 2010, 23:59

Thalass wrote: I thought there was a newer version than 2006? Or is that one still in the works?


Yes, it is the newer version that I am after.

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Post by aegidius » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 00:48

Bikes are specifically not covered under a NCOP13 (section LV) modification for electric drive (code LV1).
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... eb2006.pdf

Electric bikes will be an ICV. NCOP14 does not mention bikes at all. From talking to certifiers I have found that once you have an ICV costs go up a fair bit. For cars, this includes anyone who wants to cut into the chassis/body for any reason :-) or otherwise go beyond LV.
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Post by EV2Go » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 01:35

From what I have read ICV is only applicable to people like me who are building a vehicle from scratch, conversion of a production car or bike would fall under modifcation of an existing vehicle. Agree it is confusing...

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Post by 7circle » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 07:44

NCOP13_Section_LV_Alternative_Power_3Feb2006.pdf

NCOP13 is interesting in that 20% extra power from max production spec
is considered for Code LV1 vehicles. That's quite nice considering lowed end torque.

This says

Approvals are not allowed under Code LV1 for:
- Fitting Electric motor to any L-Group Vehicles ( eg. motorcycles and motor trikes)

But NCOP14 has allowances for ICV trikes but not ICV bikes.

Also NCOP13 refers to an older DOTARS file:
<NCOP14 Guideline Electric Drive 20sept2005.pdf>

Seems a bit loopy.

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Post by EV2Go » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 13:56

Trikes fall under LE and various sub catagories -M, -P, -G, but it is in Bulletin 14 of NCOP15 but it doesn't cover the electrical conversion side of things only mods. So would it be safe to assume you use NCOP14 for the serious electrical and NCOP15 for the standard electrical system?
Last edited by EV2Go on Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 03:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by weber » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 17:59

Hi Jeff. It seems your excellent question has been either misunderstood or ignored. It seems the nearest thing online is the draft for public comment from over a year ago. I eventually found it in a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory behind a door that said "Beware of the tiger"? (Thank you Douglas Adams)
http://www.pharosalex.com.au/page_1.htm
The time for comment expired Sep 2009 and I don't know if it has been finalised yet or where you get a copy if it has. But I'm guessing the the final version won't be very different.

While I was searching I came across Christian Tietzel's excellent Mech Eng thesis from UWA, "Battery Cage Mechanics for the Renewable Energy Vehicle Project".
http://robotics.ee.uwa.edu.au/theses/20 ... ietzel.pdf
Here's a sample. Does it look familiar?

Image

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 19:55

weber wrote: I eventually found it in a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory behind a door that said "Beware of the tiger"? (Thank you Douglas Adams)

I think you mean a locked door and "Beware of the Leopard!".

That's the display department.

Ah, the world has lost a truly great wordsmith (in Douglas Adams).
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Post by weber » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 20:40

You are so right. Sorry Douglas. That's what I get for searching for the quote on the web, instead of getting the book off the shelf. So here it is from page 12 of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

'But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local
planning office for the last nine months.'
'Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see
them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of
your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like
actually telling anybody or anything.'
'But the plans were on display...'
'On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find
them.'
'That's the display department.'
'With a torch.'
'Ah, well the lights had probably gone.
'So had the stairs.'
'But look, you found the notice didn't you?'
'Yes,' said Arthur, 'yes I did. It was on display in the bottom
of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a
sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.'
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Post by Jeff Owen » Tue, 14 Sep 2010, 21:25

And you two wonder why I don't turn up each week for EV day.

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Post by bga » Wed, 15 Sep 2010, 20:13

Hi Jeff,

It is true that there is a new version of NCOP14 nearly
ready to release.
When I last heard about it, several weeks ago, it was
being held up by other NCOP bulletins, so that they can
all be released as a package.

It isn't distrously different to the draft you've seen.

One thing to remember about it is that it is a set of
guidelines and there are few mandated items in it. Mostly,
these pertain to the basic vehicle safety and systems like
suspension, lights, brakes, steering, direction control,
containment and venting of batteries etc.

The venting and sealing requirements now only applies to
battery types that evolve gas in use or have spillable
liquids (LA types).

The big red button has been deleted (it's now optional) in
favour of having all systems controlled by the key switch.
This was done, in part, for emergency services personnel
so that the means of deactivating the vehicle is consistent
with other non-EVs.

The idea behind the document is to make sure the
conversions are safe and considerate of other road users,
but not to madate particular solutions.
Last edited by bga on Wed, 15 Sep 2010, 10:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by weber » Tue, 19 Oct 2010, 14:27

A friend sent me this draft workplan for Electric vehicle standards in Australia from Standards Australia. Note that it's not a draft EV standard, but a draft of a plan for how to create EV standards in Australia.
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Post by rhino » Mon, 08 Nov 2010, 00:54

hi there
when it says:
The venting and sealing requirements now only applies to
battery types that evolve gas in use or have spillable
liquids (LA types), does that include gel cell batteries ?
i am converting a toyota light ace van, using eugen's chinese 120volt kit, and i am wondering if/how to build a battery enclosure , and the other question is if i need to mount the motor on rubber mounts or straight metal to metal

cheers
rhino

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 08 Nov 2010, 03:31

rhino wrote: Hi there
Welcome.
... now only applies to battery types that evolve gas in use
Gel cell batteries evolve gas, but only under extreme conditions, not "in use" (at least, not in normal use).
or have spillable liquids (LA types),
Gel batteries have acid, but it can't spill.
does that include gel cell batteries ?

I'm not an expert on the standard, but the wording strongly suggests to me that gel batteries are exempted from the venting and sealing requirements. I would believe that Lithium Iron Phosphate cells would also be exempt.
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Post by bga » Mon, 08 Nov 2010, 16:39

I believe that would be correct.

Your project engineer can provide an authoritative opinion. If your engineer approves it, their report will say so and the licensing authority will (very likely) accept that report.
It's not the end of the world, but I can see it from here.

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Post by rhino » Mon, 08 Nov 2010, 22:15

thanks for your replies. i forwarded the info to the engineer, and hope for the best... and what is your opinion on motor mountings? with or without rubber pads?

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Post by EV2Go » Mon, 08 Nov 2010, 23:55

Always preferable but not always possible or practical...

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Post by Rob M » Fri, 14 Jan 2011, 18:19

The latest version of NCOP14 is now available online on the Dotars website.
Here is a direct link:
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... an2011.pdf

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Post by woody » Fri, 14 Jan 2011, 19:20

Rob M wrote: The latest version of NCOP14 is now available online on the Dotars website.
Here is a direct link:
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... an2011.pdf


Looks good Rob, thanks for your (and other AEVA members) work on this :-)

Something that jumped out at me and probably affects other old car converters is that the Key must not be removable in any position which enables the traction circuit.

My car has the bug/feature (not sure if it's wear-related) that the key can be removed at any position.
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Post by Johny » Sat, 15 Jan 2011, 01:41

woody wrote:My car has the bug/feature (not sure if it's wear-related) that the key can be removed at any position.
I had exactly the same problem woody. I've sourced a new, old ign switch for the Vogue that doesn't let the key out. It was always so useful - sigh!

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Post by seligtype3 » Thu, 10 Mar 2011, 01:38

Hmm was thinking about losing the ignition completely... will have to run that thought by the engineer.
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