Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Technical discussion on converting internal combustion to electric
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Peter C in Canberra
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by Peter C in Canberra »

Hi,
With the discussion of what may or may not go into a revised version of NCOP14 and me getting close to finishing my conversion, I am wondering when the new version might come into play. I am reasonably comfortable that I will meet the requirements of the current version and have done quite a few of the things mooted for the revised guidelines. Still it would be nice to know if there is a risk of the goalposts shifting if new guidelines come into play in the next few months. Does anyone know how imminent this might be? If it is imminent, does anyone know which requirements are almost certain to be included?
Thanks,
Peter.
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, Mitsubishi iMiEV 2013-2019, Holden Volt 2018-2019, Hyundai Kona 2019-present on the ACT's 100% renewable electricity.

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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by Rob M »

Hi Peter C
NCOP 14 revision will be finalised by end of April, hopefully. The document is basically a set of guidelines for engineers and licensing departments to use and/or follow. Most of the inclusions can be added as afters I think so I wouldn't worry too much.
Some of the items being discussed were mentioned in the latest national newsletter.
I can probably give you some more information in about two weeks, after the 2nd version is consolidated.

Peter C in Canberra
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by Peter C in Canberra »

Thanks for that. If the revision is finalised by end of April does that mean the inspecting engineer will be working to that from the first of May or sometime later, IE does it need to go to some other body to be ratified, enacted or whatever?

I have lifted each of the various points from the Newsletter and followed with a comment about where I am up to:

Classification of battery types: Any sealed batteries without spillable liquids should not require external ventillation. Battery boxes should comply with IP4x, which basically means it shouldn’t be possible to stick fingers into battery boxes.

No problem. Sealed cells without ventilation but with a cover over to keep out fingers

Safety devices: Crash sensors and rollover sensors will both be important inclusions. Earth leakage detection is also seen as a good idea for detecting insulation failures etc with isolated traction circuits.

Crash sensor-yes, a crash should open the main contactor. Rollover sensor-no. Earth leakage detector-no. I’m not at all sure how to make one and noted some comment that a bit of graphite powder from brushes might create false errors.

Fusing auxilliary devices: Appropriate fuses are required for all devices using high voltage, e.g DC/DC converter, voltmeter.

Yes, sort of. The TBS metering has ordinary 1Amp (in line mains AC) fuses as recommended but these may not have a 144V DC rating. My beefy DC/DC converter has a proper DC rated 20 Amp fuse like a smaller version of the main traction pack fuses. Everything else is 12V (with appropriate fuses).

Split pack safety: One fuse per group of batteries in the vehicle, for safety, and a means of disconnecting the pack • during maintenance. This may be a manual plug (e.g Anderson type), a contactor, or even just a wingnut.

Yes and no. I have 144V in one group of cells. I was intending to put two fuses into that at approx. 1/3 and 2/3. That way at least some internal shorts would blow at least one fuse. I will have an Anderson connector just outside the battery box. In the +ve line I have the main contactor with various means to interrupt its 12V supply. In the –ve line I have a Big Red Button.

Onboard chargers need to be appropriately protected by ELCBs on the mains input.

Yes and no. I have an earth leakage detector on the circuit supplying the power point in the carport but that doesn’t stop me plugging in elsewhere. I don’t have one built into the car. I was planning to have just a simple mains fuse in the mains active line just after the input socket like many other appliances. The chassis would be connected to the mains earth when plugged in so a fault in the charger would trip the ELCB of the house or blow the car’s fuse or trip a circuit breaker/fuse on the house. That would be more protection than I would have if the charger were left out of the car and used on the bench.

System ready light on the dash, since EVs may be deceptively silent when turned on.

I had not planned to have that. Since it would need to be somewhere prominent to be of any use I’d prefer it to go out as soon as I am actually driving which might be a bit harder to do than a simple 12V light from the ‘on’ position. Also if it is bright enough by day it might be too bright by night if it stays on all the time.

Labelling traction circuit as “hazardous voltage” or “electric shock hazard”, not technically “high voltage”

Fair point. I have a couple of ‘high voltage’ stickers to use but could order some with more correct wording.

Warning light when park brake is not engaged and ignition key is off, since electric motors won’t stop a car from rolling, unlike petrol engines.

Didn’t have that planned. Seems a reasonable idea. A buzzer might be better, like a headlights on reminder. The car has a parking brake on light so a switch exists already. I'd have to think about how to work that one.

There has been much discussion on extracting our own set of standards from existing standards e.g those parts of AS3000 which are also applicable to EV wiring.

I don’t know if I would meet the standards or not. I have some of the general wiring suggestions done such as orange conduit for all cable with traction pack voltage.

Thanks for any comments on my comments....

Peter C.
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, Mitsubishi iMiEV 2013-2019, Holden Volt 2018-2019, Hyundai Kona 2019-present on the ACT's 100% renewable electricity.

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Richo
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by Richo »

Don't expect inspectors to jump onto a new version of NCOP14 anyway.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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lithbattboss
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by lithbattboss »

Richo wrote: Don't expect inspectors to jump onto a new version of NCOP14 anyway.


Richo is exactly right.
Don't hold your breath about any of the requirements of NCOP14 as being implemented. The various state motoring authorities will decide what rules will apply in order for an EV conversion to be registered and thus able to be driven on a public road. Only today I had discussions with the chief inspectors office of the RTA (technical/engineering services)here in NSW regarding the registration requirements of EV's in this state.
I myself am looking at becoming an authorised testing inspecter (or to use the correct terminolgy in NSW an "engineering signatory") when the new system replaces the existing one. The current system of engineers who inspect and issue an engineering certificate under the current VSI 15 and VSI 2 will be phased out and replaced by the new certification system VSI 48. I am told VSI 48 is due to be implemented by mid year.

As for the requirements in other states, I would check the current situation. Changes may also be on the drawing board in other states as is the case in NSW.
Where power matters.
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Richo
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by Richo »

The NCOP14 is a "National code of practice".
It is not a "you must do it this way".
Each state has it's own rules an regulations that can over-ride some/all of the NCOP14.
So the best guide it to talk to your local agent/inspector and find out what they would like.
lithbattboss wrote: I myself am looking at becoming an authorised testing inspecter.


"Sorry your eV doesn't pass."
"You will need to change to 'these' lithium batteries before it can be registered."
Image
Only kidding Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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lithbattboss
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by lithbattboss »

The brand/type of battery doesn't concern me. After all there are a large number of EV's running on lead acid. Although almost everyone would aspire to own a set of premium quality lithiums very few can afford it (just as few people can afford a BMW or Merc).

As a testing inspector, safety (and not battery type) is the number one issue. Thankfully due to my experience installing high voltage DC systems in industry and literally thousands of batteries in these systems over the years I am well aware of the safe electrical industry practices which have been adopted over this time.

It is just a matter of time waiting to see how the new testing/approval scheme will be adopted and how it will be different from the existing scheme.
Where power matters.
XPS Power cells 25C discharge for high performance applicatiopns.
www.lifetechlithium.com

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acmotor
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by acmotor »

Image


Water off a duck's back Richo !

The one good thing about it is that we may finally get a ban on the use of wet lead acid in EVs, with all their gassing, massive weight and acid spill / corrosion issues. Sorry, personal gripe of mine.
Not implying that you will not be impartial LBB. You must allow us a laugh at your expense. It comes with the territory of being a salesman !
I would support lithium (or better) only batteries if the price comes down ! I have both SLA and TS and can only dream of BMI.


Good on you LBB. It is a step forward to have experienced electrical, not just mechanical inspections.
You will have a few things to tidy up, e.g. your wording 'High Voltage'
Image
Perhaps you can do a demonstration EV conversion ?
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !

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lithbattboss
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by lithbattboss »

acmotor wrote: Image


Water off a duck's back Richo !

The one good thing about it is that we may finally get a ban on the use of wet lead acid in EVs, with all their gassing, massive weight and acid spill / corrosion issues. Sorry, personal gripe of mine.
Not implying that you will not be impartial LBB. You must allow us a laugh at your expense. It comes with the territory of being a salesman !
I would support lithium (or better) only batteries if the price comes down ! I have both SLA and TS and can only dream of BMI.


Good on you LBB. It is a step forward to have experienced electrical, not just mechanical inspections.
You will have a few things to tidy up, e.g. your wording 'High Voltage'
Image
Perhaps you can do a demonstration EV conversion ?


I deliberately used the words'high voltage' denoting not the voltage level as strictly defined in AS3000 (as you are implying acmotor)but just as a general term when explaining those systems which are of such a voltage which require the installer to hold appropriate electrical licence qualifications.

I am not primarily a salesman. All my working life I have been involved in hands on technical work. I am first and foremost an electrical engineer and licenced electrical contractor. I take pride in quality and good workmanship. Selling is secondary.

I would encourage anyone who is a contributor to this EV forum (or similar forums such as DIY car) to consider becoming an authorised testing officer in their state if they have suitable qualifications/experience.
I am sure it is better to have an inspector who if familiar with EV's rather than just an electrical engineer who is certified just because of the engineering qualifications he holds.

I am sure there would be many auto electricians who would make good testing inspectors for EV's. That is assuming you can find one who you show your car to and doesn't recoil in horror and make a comment along the lines of "that is more than 12V.....I am sorry there is no way I am touching that!" (perhaps others have had similar experiences)

I will be heavily involved in an EV conversion ....of sorts...in a few weeks. Well it is not a car conversion but a large electric boat conversion. At least people may be interested to see some photos of the battery installation which I will be sure to post. The boat will be powered by 3 "Power Pod" electric motors supplied from the USA and stored power will be in the form of 12V 80Ah batteries x 12 pieces. This battery installation will be a bit more advanced than most since it will have not only the heavy copper power cables interconnecting all the batteries to each other and the motor controllers but also data cabling from each battery for remote PC monitoring/diagnostics. Charging will be by solar panels/wind turbine with emergency charging from backup generator. We may install re-generation so the batteries can be recharged while under sail power in strong winds but the boat ownder will need to decide upon this possibility.
In any case I am sure this will be a most interesting EV project.
The batteries are already on site at the boat company who have been contracted to undertake most of the work. There has been a bit of a delay however since the boat company was having trouble in finding a rigger and suitable crane to lift the boat out of the water. I am hoping the delays will be overcome shortly so I install the batteries and all associated wiring.
Last edited by lithbattboss on Sat, 28 Mar 2009, 09:27, edited 1 time in total.
Where power matters.
XPS Power cells 25C discharge for high performance applicatiopns.
www.lifetechlithium.com

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Richo
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by Richo »

don't forget the pics Image

Ah what a nice dream to boat around Aust/world without the need to stop off for petrol.
Maybe could set a new record.
1st person to boat around the world under power without a drop of fuel.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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acmotor
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Timing of NCOP14 revision?

Post by acmotor »

Ummmmm, try sail.

Image



LBB, salesman to the last ! Finally found your vocation ! Image
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !

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