Ponilion's LiFePo4,5-33C LiPolymer battery

Post by **acmotor** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 06:41

BTW, I just checked red suzi logged data and the SLA batteries (20Ah) droop 72V at 60A (72/576) = 12.5%. Note this droop INCLUDES all wiring, contactors and fuses so the lead acid batteries are performing better than the LiFePo4 in ESR (but then we knew that already).

Post by **Richo** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 07:12

SLA are usu around 15mR so (576/12) 48 x 15 = 720mR
Li 40Ah are 4mR so (576/3.2) 180 x 4 = 720mR

Spooky

Post by **AMPrentice** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 17:54

jackhyq wrote: Actually automatica machines produce the battery cells ,the cost
maybe more than hand , if use auto machines to procue but must need more quantity to support ,ok ?
of course we have auto machine ,not quality problems. I think A123 or valence's quality is not good than other hands factory in china .
As we know we produce poly bag prismatic LiFe battery cell ,not cylindrical battery cells,and we had used auto machines to produce,but not so quantity ,is it waste ?

In that case Jack if how many 72v 200ah prismatic packs need to be made for automatic setup to be profitable?

Im interested in a 72volt 200ah pack for my trike Dc setup
its seems by looking at the ones on that link it would weigh 166-180kg

So Im looking at 3 of these
72V60Ah With BMS
Type: LiFePo4
Weight: 50kg
Dimension:400*300*300m
Discharging Rate:5C~10C
Cell Model: PLPPF***
Cell Pcs:24PCS

What would these cost?

Post by **jackhyq** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 19:07

Hi Woody,
Please check our website cell add: http://www.ponilion.com/Products/LiFePo ... atical.htm,
the model PLPPF70173248,PLPPF14173248 ,the size and appro weight you can look at our website references.
For C rate ,depends on your engine's power ,generally speaking,in ebike or escooter ,we use poly bag of prismatic LiFe about 1C continous_3C burst ,also we can offer 5C continous to 10C burst ,and if we use cylindrical like 18650-1200mAh/26650-2200mAh about 10C continous to 20C burst ,this applicated in power tools.
For 576V's BMS ,charger ,use 12packs in series of 48V20Ah ,we don't have 576V whole BMS and charger ,but we can still discuss the solution , Use one BMS and one charger to control one 48V20Ah pack separately,is this solution ok ? Please let us know your design exactly .

Post by **jackhyq** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 19:11

Yes, Johny, You're right , we don't have full pack's BMS and charger partner ,so now we think about offer the 3.2V cells if you can find full 576V pack's BMS and charger by yourself or we offer 48V20Ah packs with BMS and charger for you or other clients . use 12 BMS and 12 charger to control each 48V20A pack, i don't know is it ok ,but we still discuss with our engineers . Please let me know your design ,ok?
Thanks!

Post by **jackhyq** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 19:56

acmotor wrote: part              V    mAh       dim                                    g    mOhm
PLPF70173248 3.2 20000 248 173 7.0±0.2 7.0±0.2 560     12
PLPF14173248 3.2 20000 248 173 14.3±0.2 14.0±0.2 1120    8

Jack, which one are you quoting on ?

Just thinking about ESR,

If you have an EV drawing say 60A (3C) on pack then at 8mOhm ESR then voltage = (192 x 3.2) - (60 x .008 x 192) = V
              614 - 92 = 522V   15% droop

522V x 60 A = 31kW useful power

This would work in my EV

The other battery was 12mOhm so at 60 A
voltage = (192 x 3.2) - (60 x .012 x 192) = V
                  614 - 138 = 476V 23% droop

476V x 60 A = 28kW - you might as well run series DC and a gearbox as well to throw more power away !

This wouldn't work in my EV as 476V will cause low voltage shutdown of controller i.e. too much battery sag, so use 8mOhm cells.

Looking at 40Ah TS cells I measure droop at 0.16V/C so at 3C droop is 15% (ESR ~ .48/120 = 4mOhm) so very much the same ratio as the lower ESR of the cells offered here (8mOhm in 20Ah).

I know my TS are 40Ah but consider Ah when choosing cells for EV.
At 60A as in example above, my 40Ah pack droops only ...
(say I was using 192 cells at 1.5C as in above example)
voltage = (192 x 3.2) - (60 x .004 x 192) = V
                  614 - 46 = 568V 7.5% droop

568V x 60 A = 34kW useful power and not too much loss.

Help me here, I must be missing something ! Am I looking a the right cells on Jacks's web site ?

The 8mOhm cells are 1.12kg for 20Ah ?C ~ US1.75/Ah
TS are 1.5kg for 40Ah 3C (5C burst) and 4mOhm ~ US$1.20/Ah
So Jack's cells are heavier per kWh (less specific energy) than TS.

Higher C discharge rating is only going to be useful if the ESR is also lower.
I would buy a 20Ah pack if the ESR ratio to Ah was less than half that of TS cells.
That is, I am prepared to have half the range for half the price but not half of half the range and with less power !

Flame me

I had quoted about this model PLPPF70173248_3.2V-20Ah ,this is our mould ，actually it is about 4mohm as the same as TS's cell ,our 40Ah,60Ah,80Ah's actual ERS will be lower than our website ,but the ERS will be added in using and added more with more rate to discharge ,i think you can understand that.

For the price and weight,i know the TS battery is so lower ,you can get deeper research about service and quality,but we can't down our price until now ,sorry for this.

Thanks .

Post by **jackhyq** » Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 20:09

AMPrentice wrote:
jackhyq wrote: Actually automatica machines produce the battery cells ,the cost
maybe more than hand , if use auto machines to procue but must need more quantity to support ,ok ?
of course we have auto machine ,not quality problems. I think A123 or valence's quality is not good than other hands factory in china .
As we know we produce poly bag prismatic LiFe battery cell ,not cylindrical battery cells,and we had used auto machines to produce,but not so quantity ,is it waste ?

In that case Jack if how many 72v 200ah prismatic packs need to be made for automatic setup to be profitable?

Im interested in a 72volt 200ah pack for my trike Dc setup
its seems by looking at the ones on that link it would weigh 166-180kg

So Im looking at 3 of these
72V60Ah With BMS
Type: LiFePo4
Weight: 50kg
Dimension:400*300*300m
Discharging Rate:5C~10C
Cell Model: PLPPF***
Cell Pcs:24PCS

What would these cost?

Hi ,thanks for your interest. For the quotation ,please contact me by email : batteryshow@126.com or jackhyq@ponilion.com ,your C rate about 5C continuous to 10C ? Please let me know your exact design.Thanks!

Post by **Mesuge** » Fri, 14 Nov 2008, 11:14

acmotor wrote: BTW, I just checked red suzi logged data and the SLA batteries (20Ah) droop 72V at 60A (72/576) = 12.5%...

Another interesting ESR-related thread

Tuarn, do you keep any logs about your RedSuzi's - SLA cyclelife?
As shown recently by Martin Eberhard (Tesla founder), keeping cells happy (applies to chemistries across the board) by regulating the avg. lifetime batt. temp turns out to be quite energy demanding, in the end worsening the overall well-to-tank efficiency of EVs..
Well, who said EVs are easy

Post by **acmotor** » Fri, 14 Nov 2008, 17:51

Messuge,

See

viewtopic.php?t=615

Post by **jackhyq** » Sun, 07 Dec 2008, 02:05

hehe,EV system is not so easy to do.

Post by **jackhyq** » Mon, 29 Dec 2008, 23:19

No any news here ???

Post by **TropicalEV** » Tue, 30 Dec 2008, 17:14

Jack I think you will find that everyone may have lost interest when you admited you couldn't match TS for price or output! Why would anyone want to buy your product if it can't perform as well and will cost more? All of the people on this forum are everyday workers building EV's for their own use. While it may appear that people is Australia are wealthy it is all relative. We earn higher wages but it costs a lot more to live. The cost of building an EV represents a very large investment in time and money. The batteries are a very important and expensive part of the project. To buy them from an unknown company is a risk....Nobody will pay more money to take a risk on an unknown company! If you want to break into the Aussie market you will have to be a lot cheaper than TS until you get a good reputation. I hope this clears things up for you..
Ken

Post by **jackhyq** » Tue, 30 Dec 2008, 20:54

TropicalEV wrote: Jack I think you will find that everyone may have lost interest when you admited you couldn't match TS for price or output! Why would anyone want to buy your product if it can't perform as well and will cost more? All of the people on this forum are everyday workers building EV's for their own use. While it may appear that people is Australia are wealthy it is all relative. We earn higher wages but it costs a lot more to live. The cost of building an EV represents a very large investment in time and money. The batteries are a very important and expensive part of the project. To buy them from an unknown company is a risk....Nobody will pay more money to take a risk on an unknown company! If you want to break into the Aussie market you will have to be a lot cheaper than TS until you get a good reputation. I hope this clears things up for you..
Ken

Thank you very much for your advice,Ken.
For the price i can't make decision,maybe next year our company will change lower price in the market.
For the performance,i don't believe that TS ,Hipower's battery is better than us ,the real test is better for us to know the truth , not famous or not,and service is very important too, ^_^!!!
Maybe the price is the best edge tool to hold the more market,so TS hold more market of Aussie.

Post by **TropicalEV** » Wed, 31 Dec 2008, 06:32

Hi Jack....May I suggest an introductory offer...maybe offer the first 6 buyers a VERY special price to encourage people to buy your product.....then they can use them in the reel world in real EV's and report back to everyone else. If your service is as good as you say then it could make you far more attractive to the market as I hear TS has poor service...The important thing here is that you need to get your product into the market! make them cheap to a few to get them out there!

Post by **jackhyq** » Wed, 31 Dec 2008, 08:22

TropicalEV wrote: Hi Jack....May I suggest an introductory offer...maybe offer the first 6 buyers a VERY special price to encourage people to buy your product.....then they can use them in the reel world in real EV's and report back to everyone else. If your service is as good as you say then it could make you far more attractive to the market as I hear TS has poor service...The important thing here is that you need to get your product into the market! make them cheap to a few to get them out there!

Thanks for your advice.
I had talked this with our boss before ,
and sent this information to him today ,
maybe next year will be lower than present ,
i hope can do more business with you or other friends.
thanks again.

Post by **jackhyq** » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 00:03

58.4V5A charger

Post by **acmotor** » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 03:13

... and .... price ?

Post by **jackhyq** » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 20:26

acmotor wrote: ... and .... price ?

The price about FOB Shenzhen Usd$93.5/set ,if order so more ,will have more discount. We can offer 58.4V25Ah/30Ah charger too .
Thanks again.

Post by **jackhyq** » Fri, 16 Jan 2009, 21:11

our EV solutions as rough lines as following:

Our EV LiFe battery cells curves as following:

Our Power Tools LiFe battery cells curves as following:

Why can't upload the pics now ? Who can let me know !

Post by **jackhyq** » Sun, 25 Jan 2009, 19:29

Hello , Everybody here , Happy Chinese Bull Year!

Post by **woody** » Sun, 25 Jan 2009, 22:49

jackhyq wrote: Hello , Everybody here , Happy Chinese Bull Year!

Hi Jackhyq,

This makes me smile.

cheers,
Woody

Post by **antiscab** » Mon, 26 Jan 2009, 00:04

lol,
found in translation :p

Happy chinese new year, year of the bull

Matt

Post by **jackhyq** » Mon, 02 Feb 2009, 19:00

woody wrote:
jackhyq wrote: Hello , Everybody here , Happy Chinese Bull Year!

Hi Jackhyq,

This makes me smile.

cheers,
Woody

lol,
found in translation :p

Happy chinese new year, year of the bull

Matt

Sorry ,Everybody, Happy Chinese New Year of Ox !!!

Post by **acmotor** » Mon, 02 Feb 2009, 19:28

Ox / Bull
Both hooved four legged ruminous bovines typically with horns.
But on the iconic front - Ox represents povity, sufference, hard slog.
Bull represents bravery aggressive forward movement, energy !
I had to laugh at the subtle loss of meaning in translation.

Is it a coincidence that it is the year of the Ox ?

Jack, maybe your choice in the translation would have been the better one ?

But yes, happy Chinese new year !

Post by **jackhyq** » Mon, 02 Feb 2009, 19:44

acmotor wrote: Ox / Bull
Both hooved four legged ruminous bovines typically with horns.
But on the iconic front - Ox represents povity, sufference, hard slog.
Bull represents bravery aggressive forward movement, energy !
I had to laugh at the subtle loss of meaning in translation.

Is it a coincidence that it is the year of the Ox ?

Jack, maybe your choice in the translation would have been the better one ?

But yes, happy Chinese new year !

Hehe! Thanks for your information . I don't know how to choose two words. So maybe later i will pay more attention about my language.
Now we are back to work now in office. Any solution ,welcome !