Damn Chargers!

How do you store and manage your electricity?
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Paul9
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Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Tue, 14 May 2019, 12:05

Hi people,

After having two chargers blow simultaneously I bought two new KPES chargers. I installed one and hooked it up to the existing wiring in the car. The existing wiring consists of 3 prong connector under the petrol cap connected to an on-off switch connected to a 15amp circuit breaker connected under the car to an IEC connector at the front of the car which connects to the IEC connector on the charger.

I hooked it all up, plugged in the extension lead, turned the switch on and nothing happened.

I assumed the wiring or connectors in the car must be stuffed. So using an IEC adaptor I connected a 10watt desk lamp. Worked fine. I then hooked up a 150watt cleaner and it worked fine. I then hooked up a 2400 watt heater and it worked fine. I then hooked up the charger again and nothing happened.

I concluded that it must be the charger that is at fault.

I took the extension lead and hooked it, through an IEC adapter, directly to the charger (not through the vehicle wiring) and it works fine!

From the above I assume the car wiring is fine as it handles from a 10watt light to a 2400 watt heater without any problems.
I assume the charger is not the problem because, when I connect it straight to the wall socket (not through the vehicle wiring) it works fine.
But when I connect the charger through the vehicle wiring it just sits there - no fans, no lights, no charging!

Any help much appreciated!
Paul

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Richo
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Tue, 14 May 2019, 12:25

Controller surge current through the breaker is the likely problem.
Also is the breaker a breaker or RCD or combo?

A pic from under your car at those bits might help.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Tue, 14 May 2019, 12:46

Thanks Richo

Just before I go have a bo-peep at the breaker I am confused. While the controller and the breaker are both part of the vehicle's wiring, they are not part of the charging circuit? Or are they? I don't understand.

Sorry - just showing my lack of knowledge!

Thanks
Paul

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Richo
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Thu, 16 May 2019, 13:05

I'm under the impression you get mains from your house, plug it into the "fuel" port which then goes through an ON/OFF switch and a circuit breaker and then to the charger at the front of the car which then connect to the traction battery.
The traction battery then connects to the controller and finally the drive motor.
BUT only ONE of the charge circuit OR the drive circuit can be ON - not both at the same time.

So the breaker and on/off switch are really the only stressed parts between the charge port and the charger at the front.

So you tested the mains wiring in the car using 10W lamp (no surge), 150W cleaner (minimal surge), 2400W (no surge), 2000W+ Charger(high surge)
And it only fails on the last one.

My guess is the breaker...

I could be wrong but I'd expect a pic would solve that.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Johny
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Johny » Fri, 17 May 2019, 05:44

My 2c worth. The IEC connector is not plugged in all the way at the charger.

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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Fri, 17 May 2019, 12:28

Paul9 wrote:
Tue, 14 May 2019, 12:05
10watt desk lamp....150watt cleaner...2400 watt heater and it worked fine.
How many of these things actually used all 3 lines (Earth)?
Possibly an earth leakage problem.

Unplug your mains and charger from the car.
Test the resistance between the each of the 3 pins of the mains charge port on your car and the chassis.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Sun, 19 May 2019, 09:04

Thanks very much Richo and Johny,

I will get my electrician brother over to help me (or more correctly - me help him) with an "electrical diagnosis" during the week. I will show him your opinions.

Of the three things I tested, the 10 watt lamp and the 2400 watt heater had earth pins. The 150watt cleaner did not have an earth pin.

I had been doing my testing with a 15amp extension lead onto the 10amp 3 pin connector at the back of the car. Thinking that the 10 amp earth pin may not have been connecting with the 15 amp socket on the lead, I substituted a brand new 10 amp extension lead and repeated my tests. Unfortunately I got exactly the same results as my first tests.

Thanks again,
Paul

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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Fri, 31 May 2019, 09:29

Sorry guys but it turns out I gave you a "bum steer"!

Got my brother over to help with the charger problem. When I hooked up the light, the cleaner and the heater, through the car, NONE of them worked. (Unlike last time when they all worked except the charger). And of course the charger didn't work either. So my brother started testing voltages through each component through the car. The three pin under the petrol cap had 240v going through it as did the on/off switch. The circuit breaker had 240v going in and coming out of it.

He then started pulling off the internal paneling from the car and discovered there was a relay in the line that both of us had completely forgotten about! In an attempt to somewhat excuse us, the relay was fitted over 10 years ago and hadn't been touched since. He fiddled with the relay while I went and checked the charger. He was able to turn the charger on and off with the relay. It appears the relay is the problem!

His initial comment to me after finding the problem was "Why did we put this relay in the line?" My reply was the obvious "How would I know?"

By this time he had to get going and we agreed he would come back next week. In the meantime I am trying to identify the relay so we can buy a new one. (If in fact we need one?) Unfortunately some of the markings on the relay have worn off so all I can read is "250v 12A" and a (I assume) part no "F31016KM" It also has 5 screws.

I googled the part number but got no hits.

Any comments guys?
Sorry for my screw-up!
Thanks
Paul

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Richo
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Fri, 31 May 2019, 12:56

Ah can't charge when car on.
Or should it be cant turn on when charging...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Fri, 31 May 2019, 13:51

Paul9 wrote:
Fri, 31 May 2019, 09:29
Unfortunately some of the markings on the relay have worn off so all I can read is "250v 12A" and a (I assume) part no "F31016KM" It also has 5 s
Din mount Relay with socket or a SSR perhaps

Picture pls
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Fri, 31 May 2019, 14:06

250V 12A...

Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Sat, 01 Jun 2019, 09:34

Thanks Richo

The pictures you were after.
20190601_111059.jpg
20190601_111059.jpg (1.31 MiB) Viewed 1093 times
20190601_111114.jpg
20190601_111114.jpg (1.44 MiB) Viewed 1093 times
20190601_111129.jpg
20190601_111129.jpg (1.27 MiB) Viewed 1093 times

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Richo
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Tue, 04 Jun 2019, 12:50

So I'd go with a Meta/MEC "GMC-12M"
Its an AC contactor.

AC goes in and I'm guessing it distributes power to charger and stops the car from starting.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Richo » Tue, 04 Jun 2019, 13:02

1269017600 (220V -1a) <--- My guess
1269038900 (240V -1a)
1269019700 (220V -1b)
1269039100 (240V -1b)

The screw terminals on the right that are shadowed in the pic determine the model?!?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Paul9
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Thu, 06 Jun 2019, 08:07

Thanks Richo

I will pass that info on to my brother.

Regards
Paul

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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:32

Having had a "gutfull" of chargers blowing I am investigating buying a Zivan NG3 charger. The firm I emailed in the USA advised me:

"Paul,
We have the 240VAC 144V 18A Zivan NG3 chargers in stock. They sell for $1029 USD plus shipping. They can be programmed for 140.4VDC output."

I wasn't sure if they mean't 18 A at 240vAC or 18A at 140.4v DC output so I sent an email to clarify:

"Hi Sayyed,
Is the charger you are proposing puting out 18amps at 240v AC or 18amps at 140.4v DC? In Australia we have 15amp circuits at 240v Ac so 18amps at 240v AC would be too much?
Thanks"

He replied

"Paul,
18A is the DC output at 140.4v DC. The AC input current on 240VAC is 20A. The DC output current will need to be drastically reduced in order to limit the AC input current to 15A. You can instead buy the Elcon PFC 2500 144V 15A charger which draws 12A on 240VAC and sells for $665 USD plus shipping"

I suppose I have two questions:
a) Contrary to his last reply above I would calculate (roughly) that 18A at 140.4v = 2527watts. 2527 watts plus an inefficiency factor of 10% ( guess) = 2780 watts.
2780 watts divided by 240v AC = 11.583 A. But he is saying the input current is 20amps? Am I getting something wrong here?

b) The chinese chargers I have been using in the past have cost me around $500 AU. The Zivan charger will cost me $1,660 AU (incl freight) - about triple the price of the chinese chargers. Are Zivan chargers three times as good as the Elcon and other chinese chargers?

Thanks for your help,
Paul

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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by brendon_m » Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 13:45

Paul9 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 12:32
18A is the DC output at 140.4v DC. The AC input current on 240VAC is 20A.
Probably mistaking 240v for 110v.

antiscab
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by antiscab » Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 16:40

pf on the zivans arent great. Not sure theyre as bad as 0.6 though they might be. I'm not a fan of them, so never bought one.

I've heard good things about the thunder struck 2.5kw charger :
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_ ... vrf3hhkfh7

There's also brusa
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by coulomb » Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 20:37

antiscab wrote:
Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 16:40
I've heard good things about the thunder struck 2.5kw charger
Yes, and I believe that OzDIY / Suzi Auto carry ones that look identical.
There's also brusa
Excellent quality, the Rolls Royce of chargers, but might be a lot more expensive again, I haven't checked lately.
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Dan007a » Sat, 15 Jun 2019, 21:12

Protech on ebay atm

Paul9
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Re: Damn Chargers!

Post by Paul9 » Sun, 16 Jun 2019, 14:01

I will investigate the TSM chargers with OzDIY. I have met Graeme before.

Maybe the only plus the Zivan might have is that they have a distributor not far from me.

Thanks
Paul

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