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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 10:35
by Johny
Adverse Effects wrote:
Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 08:38
ChemicalHorizon wrote:
Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 21:25
Richo wrote:
Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:46
5x the energy density as the lithium rechargeable.
Shut up and take my money! How good will my hand stick vacuum be with these things in it!
noooooo careful you will suck the carpet off the floor
Yep - there would be a sucker involved somewhere...

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 12:20
by Richo
Just imagine you could power your 100km+ eV or your house for a day for something the size of a briefcase.
Magic carbon is so AWESOME.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 19:23
by Adverse Effects
LOL i just re-watched there last vid and i quote
0:39 so we can't turn it on manually these
0:41 terminals are off we have a look here on
0:43 the multimeter you can see that there's
0:45 no power here it's available on here
0:49 nothing no box so now the units almost
0:53 booted up fully here we go I just open
0:56 up here and the circuit breaker turns on
he just barely taps the probes on the terminal for a split sec and it reads voltage
and this is with the braker OFF

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Mon, 11 Jun 2018, 12:42
by Richo
Ah did you see on the front of the box in big writing it has "CAPACITOR MODULE*".
Note the little *.
Down the bottom it says "*capacitors not included" :lol:

There problem solved :P

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Mon, 11 Jun 2018, 12:44
by Richo
It's interesting to note that in the background there are like a hundred people crowding around another stand.
Then they leave and all just walk straight past.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 14:19
by ChemicalHorizon
I found the equivalent witch craft going on in mining.

This mob (http://haoma.com.au/)...claim to be able to detect hundreds of g/t of gold in tailings where traditional methods only find <1g/t. Sounds too good to be true right? Well, they have convinced people to invest the order of millions into the company. A company which has been de-listed from the ASX when no certified Geologist would endorse their statements (not JORC compliant). There are some high profile names on their share registry too.

The point of this post...

- It doesn't take much to con alot of money from people.
- Companies survive years (20+ years) on pseudo science and tricks...many hoping to convince a few new people each year to invest in them hoping to be successful, one day.
- Companies which cannot get, or wont get, independent engineers, labs (Geologist in the above case) to sign-off their advertising is the real thing, should be met with caution.

Until Killowatt / ARVIO demonstrate the chemistry of their cells, by independent labs with results open to scientific scrutiny, stay well clear. It is NOT good enough to say "but look how it performs at the terminals". That doesn't answer the question of validating the "super capacitor" label in the name.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 14:57
by weber
I agree 100% with everything you wrote above, except this:
ChemicalHorizon wrote:
Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 14:19
It is NOT good enough to say "but look how it performs at the terminals". That doesn't answer the question of validating the "super capacitor" label in the name.
I'd like to understand why you say that, because AFAIK it is obvious to everyone here who has the training and experience to understand the difference between a battery and a capacitor, that the question of the validity of the "supercapacitor" label has been answered resoundingly in the negative, merely by looking at how the individual cells perform "at the terminals".

Given the large number of different chemical substances that can be used to make a capacitor, surely the property of being a capacitor has very little to do with chemistry and everything to do with behaviour at the terminals.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 18:24
by ChemicalHorizon
I was not referring to yours and others analysis in the terminal testing on this site. Sorry, may have come across that way.

I should have said it is not enough for Arvio to claim the terminal tests validate it's a supercapacitor. Agree all the tests actually show it's a battery, but it still says supercap on the box...burden of proof is on them, and more terminal tests don't improve their position.

The only way to validate the Arvo position is by intrusive analysis of the cells. Yes there are many variations, but it will be clear by the chemistry and construction.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 09:20
by digsys
I think that horse has been beaten to death enough :-) Not getting up in this lifetime ...
Came across this yesterday, and a cursory search shows great promise. I have been experimenting with an embedded supercap idea for ages, so the bastids beat me to it :-)
The 5X more powerful needs to be scrutinized, but the rest seems very plausible !! Thoughts? Haven't spent too much time on it yet, hopefully by the weekend.
https://newatlas.com/nawa-technologies- ... tor/54972/
www.nawatechnologies.com/en/products/

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 10:24
by weber
Looks like vapourware to me. Did you find any product specs that would allow one to calculate watt-hours per litre? I didn't. But at least they are not making ridiculous claims about watt-hours per kilogram (less than a tenth of that of lithium-ion batteries).

And when they write: “In the long term, the possibilities offered by our electrode material will enable us to develop hybrid ultracapacitor cells with performance levels approaching those of lithium-ion batteries or even advanced lithium batteries that will surpass current lithium batteries in terms of fast charging and lyfecycle.", they are talking about battery/supercap hybrids. I predict that, to the degree their performance approaches that of lithium-ion batteries, they will be lithium-ion batteries, and their life-span will fall to that of lithium-ion batteries.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 12:56
by digsys
weber wrote: .... Did you find any product specs that would allow one to calculate watt-hours per litre?
Like I said, I haven't scrutinized it all in detail BUT they are very clear that it IS a lithium cell WITH an embedded supercap, which is what I have been working on for a while.
Having the supercap embedded with EACH cell increases the efficiency and effectiveness of the combo a HUGE amount. Having long strings of supercaps externally connected
to 200V++ packs is extremely lossy, damn complicated to manage and has limited advantages (to what they can truly achieve).
Hopefully, soon, I'll get access to a dyno and be able to run real-world tests, but bench tests are quite favourable.
Volumetrically, you'd reason that you can't get any better than 1+ (extra volume of the caps), but they are embedding them IN the lithium cells, so all bets are off.
(I connect them, plus other filters) directly across each cell). The 5X numbers etc seem a bit far fetched, and maybe there is a bit of embellishment :-) -
but the company does seem legit at least.
A stand-alone supercap or Lithium cell was ALWAYS going to be bull, but a TRUE hybrid ... new story.

The Watt-hrs per litre may not be better (by much?), it's the efficiency increase the caps > the Lithium cells that we can't calculate easily right now.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Wed, 20 Jun 2018, 13:06
by Richo
NAWA looks like another hopes and dreams company.
All CGI no real photo's of anything.
Their link to the Geneva Auto show doesn't just talk about NAWA but many supercap manufacturers.
In fact the only comment made about them was that NAWA "believe" they could reduce a formula-e car from 300kg to 200kg.
No attempt - no proof - just wild claims.
Their comparison was a lithium battery with 5,000 cycles.
I'm sure if they compared it to a real LTO with 40,000 cycles and capabilities of 60C their "super" cap looks "super" crap.

Another link claims they got a grant for a "BATTERY' not a capacitor.

They talk about structural tests with airbus - but no link to any proof or even a link to some form of scientific results.
Just a comment made by NAWA.

Sorry it all looks like hype to me.

When you get to large pack sizes for EV's even a fast charge, fast discharge, or regen has little impact on life of a battery.
22kVA -> 22kWh pack = 1C so a supercap wont help.
Even leaf cells are 4C/9C.
Toshiba's SCiB are 40,000 cycles to 80% AT 10C charge and 10C discharge.
So 22kW pack needs 220kW charging station.
AND a 220kW motor continuous and 1.3MW peak - YES that's a Veyron.
WHO has an electric Veyron?
Still NO supercaps needed.

SO I guess if you have 1MW ev charging station with an Electric Veyron - supercaps might be an option...

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Wed, 20 Jun 2018, 17:04
by digsys
Richo wrote: NAWA looks like another hopes and dreams company. .... Sorry it all looks like hype to me.
You may well be completely correct, and likely are, reading your investigations. But as I said, I haven't had time to track their claims and some did seem unreasonable.
The part that caught my attention big time was the integration of supercaps and lithiums in the same cell !! I've been working on a hybrid version for a while,
and it has huge promise. Volume wise, as a wild guess, a 5KWh Li + same vol of supercaps (2X) would be reduced to say 1.3X, with other major advantages.
I've been trying to get hold of Teslas 21-70s (not competitors 21700) to work with, and would definitely like to get hold of a few of these (like you say .. IF they exist)
It was the "hybrid integration" that caught my attention, as I haven't found anyone talk about this before. It pricked up my ears !! :-)
Separate supercap packs are "old news" and have many disadvantages / difficulties / complexities.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 23:01
by Sideral707
Hello everyone, I spent the last hour or two reading in details all of this forum as well as all the links posted. Very, very interesting to say the least... I visited their factory in Dubai a few months back and have taken some pictures of what's inside the Sirius energy storage packs. That will allow us to write the final scientific conclusion on what KiloWatt Labs is really selling. Let me know if that strikes anyone's interest? Also I'd love to have a phone conversation with some of you guys (digsys, Richo and weber in particular), so if you're ok with that, please send me a personal message with your phone number and let's talk.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 08:09
by coulomb
Sideral707 wrote:
Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 23:01
I visited their factory in Dubai a few months back
Cool!
and have taken some pictures of what's inside the Sirius energy storage packs. ... Let me know if that strikes anyone's interest?
I'd certainly like to see more some pictures of the insides. I'm still curious as to the extent and intent of the control electronics. My suspicion is that it does little more than drive the LC Display.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 12:40
by Richo
Like I said before if you have the goose that lays golden eggs why put them in a pi$$a$$ product like this for a meager return.
And if the factory is in Dubai how is it that the Vic govt gave out Millions to these people for a product to be made in Australia.
A whirlwind tour and a couple of happy snaps wont scientifically prove anything.
Generally people with real IP selling a unique product don't just let randoms come in for a visit and take photo's.
I know I don't.
So that would either mean you are paid, just stirring the pot, or fishing for people on this thread.

TBH this thread should be locked until such time as someone can give a real reason to the admin to unlock it.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 18:16
by digsys
Agreed Richo

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor

Posted: Sat, 18 Aug 2018, 18:43
by Adverse Effects
if you want you can lock or delete the thread BUT

very interesting as to what is in side it

looks like stacks of Arduino's
blocks of wood
hot glue used to insulate things


Re: Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor

Posted: Sat, 18 Aug 2018, 19:35
by reecho
That last comment though... :-)

Re: Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor

Posted: Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 13:05
by Richo
And Duct tape always makes a product top notch...

Re: Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor

Posted: Tue, 21 Aug 2018, 13:46
by doggy
A couple of years ago I bought 6 very large supercapacitors. Results can be summarised as follows:

a. Lose charge quite quickly. Not useful to store for more than about 1hr
b. High quiescent leakage current- so, when charged and charging, they are always wasting energy
c. Difficult to keep balanced on both charge and discharge due to capacitor differences. Much worse than balancing Lithiums. Plus they are very sensitive to over voltage.

All in all, I am not sure how they do the huge experimental capacitor arrays in the Californian electricity grid. Perhaps they have very high quality (= very expensive) supercaps?

Regards,
Dave

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:20
by weber
I just received the following photos anonymously by email. The sender wrote:
This is an installation in Africa with 2 x Axpert (Voltronic) inverters, an 85A Victron MPPT and 3 x Sirius Capacitor Modules in parallel.

One morning after having been installed for a few weeks they exploded. A high temperature fire blasted from the rear of the modules.

Two problems here:
1. Supercapacitors do not explode or burn during over-charge
2. Where are the protection circuits?

Before
before.jpg
before.jpg (38.5 KiB) Viewed 1376 times

After
after.jpg
after.jpg (48.46 KiB) Viewed 1376 times

Rear view of the modules
rear.jpg
rear.jpg (49.61 KiB) Viewed 1376 times

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:45
by Johny
Oh wow! Surely this must signal the end of these modules being made available.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 17:50
by reecho
Yup. Junk. Utter junk...

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Posted: Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 18:02
by jonescg
I reckon they won't be for sale anymore...